Sharpening stones.


BKeys

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I'm new to sharpening and currently have a cheap, and by cheap I mean .99 water stone that is just labeled course and fine.  So essentially, I have no sharpening stones.  I'm going to be making a run into Detroit where there is a wood craft store and want to remedy that problem.  I have been reading about the different methods and different brands and really haven't come to any conclusions yet.  My biggest problem is that I only have about $150 I can put toward stones so i was wondering what people's thoughts are on which way to go.  I've wavered between Norton combo stones over to DMT diamond then to maybe just getting a 1500 Shapton to start and in a few weeks getting a 4K.  It seemed I could get enough of the Norton or DMT with $150 to actually get me rolling adequately but it also seems that overall the shaptons are the best route....any input?

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With your budget, it's going to be a slow build..  The problem with sharpening, you kind of need most things all at once.

I'd suggest the Shaptons per your plan.  You'll also need a DMT diamond plate to flatten the Shaptons at some point.

Additionally, you'll want a guide to give you the best results.  I like this one.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078,51868

It's an expensive hobby!  It takes time to build up the equipment list that makes things a little nicer and easier.

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Thanks for the input as always...I have went quite a while with limited use of my chisels and planes because they aren't real sharp.  I have been wrestling with wanting to get them more usable quickly vs getting a good set which will take more time...I think you kinda just pushed me toward the longer path but the better in the long run.  I've went this long, I can wait a bit longer....it won't be too long.  Should I just start at the beginning with a course stone or is there some validity in my idea of getting a medium grit and it just taking me longer to get my blades to at least usable?  If that makes sense..

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1 minute ago, BKeys said:

Thanks for the input as always...I have went quite a while with limited use of my chisels and planes because they aren't real sharp.  I have been wrestling with wanting to get them more usable quickly vs getting a good set which will take more time...I think you kinda just pushed me toward the longer path but the better in the long run.  I've went this long, I can wait a bit longer....it won't be too long.  Should I just start at the beginning with a course stone or is there some validity in my idea of getting a medium grit and it just taking me longer to get my blades to at least usable?  If that makes sense..

You really need the 2 stones to get a good blade.  If I had to choose which one to buy first, it would depend on the condition of my chisels.  If the backs weren't flat, the angles were off, or there were nicks, I'd go for the coarse one first.  If they just needed touched up to keep me going, I'd by the finer one first.

Also, there as some less expensive dual sided stones out there that you could probably use as a stop gap until you get the set up you want..  I think I have one of those stones that I'm not using..  Drop me a PM with your addy and if I have it, I'll send it to you.  No promises..  Been a long time since I've laid eyes on that stone!

It really does take time to build the equipment in the shop!  Buy once, cry once!  I know they're cliche but, they are accurate!

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No doubt...the other possibility is that the rest of my play money was going to go for a new blade for my new miter saw.  I could put my dreams of a Forrest on hold and get a Freud. Between that savings and me ponying up just a bit more I could get a 320, 1500 and 5000. That should do me.  The Frued blades I have for my other saws are very good....I just wanted to dip my toes in the big boy pond and see what the hype is about!  But the Freud would certainly be good enough for quite a while for me.

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Spend the Forest money in your table saw!  Freud will work just fine in your miter saw! 

I also don't think you need a 320 stone.  Unless you're using complete crap for chisels, the 1k and the 4k should keep you in business.  You can expand later but, you need to start somewhere.

I think Marc has a sharpening video on the free site you can check out.

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I actually have a brand new set of Irwin chisels. They need the backs flattened...anyhow the course stone aside you recommend 1k and 4K over 1500 and 5. I've been trying to figure out what was necessary and what was fluff when it comes to things like the 8k and above....was just trying to hedge my bet with the 5k and it seemed that I didn't want such a big gap between 1 and 5.  So I thought 1500

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12 minutes ago, TIODS said:

Spend the Forest money in your table saw!  Freud will work just fine in your miter saw! 

I also don't think you need a 320 stone.  Unless you're using complete crap for chisels, the 1k and the 4k should keep you in business.  You can expand later but, you need to start somewhere.

I think Marc has a sharpening video on the free site you can check out.

Agree. But add some Lee Valley green compound (crayon) to the list. Squiggle on a 3x8" piece of flat pine (NOT leather), and finish sharpening on this. That will take the edge to about 20000+ grit.

Regards from Perth

Derek

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I've never heard about using a piece of pine.....any particular species or just any flat piece of pine....I have a ton of that laying around.  I have thought about just using sand paper and I do have a guide already...not a nice veritas though.

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My current system is very basic and inexpensive. For a really damaged chisel or when want to change a bevel angle I use sandpaper on a flat formica surface to get started at what ever grit is appropriate. I have started at 80 grit and worked to 600 grit. that was a lot of work to change a bevel that way but significantly changing a bevel is a rare occurrence. I use 3M sandpaper with water sprayed on it even though it is not wet/dry sand paper.  It holds together well enough. Then I used a double sided 1000/4000 water stone and finish of with slip strope compound from woodcraft.  For just keeping the blades sharp, only the stone is needed.  When it comes to flattening my stone I use 80 or 120 grit sand paper laid on a piece of granite that I got from a dumpster at a local counter top making place. Spray liberally with water and rub stone on it. I use a Veriats honing guide. Not real classy but I am happy with the results so far. 

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I actually have a brand new set of Irwin chisels. They need the backs flattened...anyhow the course stone aside you recommend 1k and 4K over 1500 and 5. I've been trying to figure out what was necessary and what was fluff when it comes to things like the 8k and above....was just trying to hedge my bet with the 5k and it seemed that I didn't want such a big gap between 1 and 5.  So I thought 1500

Ok. I got a 1000 and 5000 grit Shapton stone. I flattened the backs of my chisels and honed to the 5000 grit. They came out pretty good but I think I need to work on my technique some.  I have a $15 honing guide which is a bit of a pain to use and doesn't work for my smaller chisels. Will get a veritas guide when I can afford it. I also have a 8000 grit Shapton on order. Should I expect to see a significant increase in sharpness when I get that stone or should I have more moderate expectations?

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stonessmall.jpgThere will absolutely be a noticeable difference.  Find the thread with my low buck angle setting gauges.  They make repeatable accuracy foolproof.   I have the Eclipse guides, as well as a MkII, but end up using the Eclipses the most.  The LV plane screwdriver helps a lot tightening the Eclipse jig so that nothing can slip. The plane screwdriver is right behind the MKii on the counter.  Those stones are now in a rack that keeps them up off the bottom of the sink.   The setting gauges are in the jumble on the counter to the left of the paper towels.

Waterstones need water.  I like warm running water.

stonerack.png

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I used to do the "be a man" sharpening by hand, and can do it probably close to as good as anyone.  I've found it fastest to use a jig, and not fool with things like micro-bevels, ruler tricks, and such.  I do full bevel, and flat back only.  With a fast, repeatable system, and fast stones, no time is wasted having to regrind a bevel back to a starting point, or letting a micro-bevel take over more and more area until you have a different main bevel.

I grind to a little less than the honed bevel I want, and let the honed bevel take over as much of the main bevel as it wants, until I have to regrind because I did something dumb, like hit a grit.

Since going to this system, it's been months at a time before I need to grind a bevel on anything.

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2 hours ago, JosephThomas said:

I have noticed a lot of guys don't use jigs/guages for sharpening, Rob Cosman included...is this because they are so pro already, and noobs like me will need some training first? Or do some people actually find them unnecessary?

I learned sharpening from Rob Cosman and started freehand. As far as the blade being sharp it worked fine no issues. However my OCD kicked in because the bevels were never quite perfect and it bugged me to the point that I started using the Lie Nielsen honing jig for most things. I am happier now and I don't think it adds but a few seconds to my sharpening process.

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Looking at your pictures I can identify the mk2 and am guessing the gray ones are the eclipse.  They look exactly like the one I have.  Mine is not an eclipse and cost maybe $15.  It rides on a single roller and even though I was doing my utmost to apply even pressure the visible grinding on the bevel seemed to wear more on one side than the other so I figure I may need a guide that is more fool proof.  For $15 I am guessing I didn't get the pinnacle of quality and some of the others are probably easier to use.  Also the smaller chisels didn't want to set flat in the grooves of the guide.  All in all though, my chisels are in much better shape now and hopefully will take another step forward with the 8000 grit stone.  All my "woodworking" experience is more construction/handyman type stuff plus of course 9th grade shop class.  When I bought my chisels I never even considered that they weren't good 2 go off the shelf.  It wasn't until 2 weeks of bed ridden internet searching after back surgery did I even read any articles or watch any videos that told me different.  I had a cheap ( literally 99 cent) combo water stone and a $15 honing guide only because common sense told me that at some point they would need to be sharpened.  This is a whole new thing for me.

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  • 2 weeks later...

With about 20 minutes with a file, you can tweak the Eclipse style.guide works well. Search Eclipse guide on the Lie-Neilsen site. Deneb has a video on doing the mods and hints on using the guide. I actually prefer the Eclipse guide for chisels. I have the MK2 for wide blades, although the Eclipse works fine for them too.

A 1000/4000 grit combo water stone works great to start with and they are relatively inexpensive. Sandpaper on granite or heavy glass or even a piece of MDF works for flattening backs and the water stone until you can get something bette. I have DMT DiaSbarp diamond stones now, but frequently fine on a waterstone or a strop with  green chromium oxide.

Pick one and it a try.

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On 6/10/2016 at 0:20 PM, Ronn W said:

My current system is very basic and inexpensive. For a really damaged chisel or when want to change a bevel angle I use sandpaper on a flat formica surface to get started at what ever grit is appropriate. I have started at 80 grit and worked to 600 grit. that was a lot of work to change a bevel that way but significantly changing a bevel is a rare occurrence. I use 3M sandpaper with water sprayed on it even though it is not wet/dry sand paper.  It holds together well enough. Then I used a double sided 1000/4000 water stone and finish of with slip strope compound from woodcraft.  For just keeping the blades sharp, only the stone is needed.  When it comes to flattening my stone I use 80 or 120 grit sand paper laid on a piece of granite that I got from a dumpster at a local counter top making place. Spray liberally with water and rub stone on it. I use a Veriats honing guide. Not real classy but I am happy with the results so far. 

The sandpaper sheets they now sell at Home Depot is a new 3M "Pro Grade Precision".   It's on some sort of plastic sheet instead of paper so it works wet or dry.   The red style works for sharpening.   The grey style is ultra flexible with a really thin backing and I'd not try that.   So there are some good options there for the coarse grits.

I've been using sandpaper thus far, and I can see it'd be expensive if I was doing a lot of sharpening but since I only do it once every few months it's not so bad.   I just use a piece of granite tile and a cheap honing guide and it works suitably ok.   But I just have the cheap Narex chisels from Lee Valley, and a Stanley block plane.

 

 

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Sharpness is so much more important that the price of the tools you use.  I do this for a living, and have way more money tied up in the sharpening stuff (pictures previously posted in this thread) than the tools they sharpen.  It doesn't matter if the chisel in your hand is a boutique, hundred dollar tool unless it's at least as sharp as the blue plastic handled Marples in my hand.

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I ended up getting the 1k, 5k and 8k Shapton stones and a lapping stone to flatten them. My chisels are definitely sharper and it makes a huge difference. However, I can see where sharpening can be a bit of an art and I need a bit of practice yet.

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11 hours ago, BKeys said:

I ended up getting the 1k, 5k and 8k Shapton stones and a lapping stone to flatten them. My chisels are definitely sharper and it makes a huge difference. However, I can see where sharpening can be a bit of an art and I need a bit of practice yet.

I think you will be pleased with this setup. I went to it about a year ago and even with a jig I can sharpen a chisel/plane blade in a couple minutes.

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