bleedinblue Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 The people who do our maintenance/back flow testing say need to add a pressure regulator valve to our system. They want $300 to do it, that seems extreme. Couldn't I just do a simple valve with some shark bite fittings and do it myself? The copper has 1 1/8 inch outer diameter, which may be difficult to find fittings for, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 That's 1" copper pipe-no problem at all to find fittings. I don't know exactly what sort of regulator you need, but it can easily be found online. Here's an example: http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdepot/ProductDetail.asp?Product=125529&AffiliateID=GoogleDirectFeed&gclid=Cj0KEQjw5Ie8BRCJ9fHlr_bH24cBEiQAkoDQcSWbnEBxHhspxhNzaY4PEZKPA7NoYjpwMC_elRRQR5EaAnnR8P8HAQ You may even be able to find them with Sharkbite ends, but I didn't spend any time looking. If it was mine, I'd solder the joints. Most of the time spent sweating such a joint is draining all the water out of the pipes. Otherwise, it would be couple of minute job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 What Tom said. It's important to be aware that a pressure regulator is different than a valve. The valve can restrict flow, but can pass along the full water pressure in a no flow situation (all downstream valves are closed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 There are commercial devices to stop water dripping for soldering, but not cheap. https://www.plumbingsupply.com/waterstopperforsoldering.html I've done it more than a few times with white bread, but you need to be able to flush it out after the job is done or it will clog up strainer screens on faucets or washing machines. Notice the valve in my first link has a union fitting on each end. That allows you to take the ends off to solder to the pipe without subjecting the valve to all the heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestor Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Does the price include parts and can you elaborate on the "pressure regulator valve"? If it was more clear why it was being installed, then we can get a better idea on the price. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, Nestor said: Does the price include parts and can you elaborate on the "pressure regulator valve"? If it was more clear why it was being installed, then we can get a better idea on the price. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Yeah, price includes parts and labor. The guy checked the pressure at the backflow and it was at 125 psi, he said it shouldn't have been over 80 psi. According to a Culligan tech a couple years ago, because our home is down hill from he rest of the subdivision our pressure can spike pretty easily. We have a regulator to help keep the indoor water pressure in check, but the sprinkler system supply branches off before that regulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 EDIT: You were posting while I typed. Do the regulation. Over 90 and things like toilet innards will fail prematurely. A second regulator is a good idea if you irrigate while using water in the house. At my house, I irrigate in the AM before we rise. If my irrigation were city supply, I would reroute before buying a second regulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Looks like the one in my first link should work fine. What you need is a pressure reducing valve, and they come in all sorts of inlet and outlet pressures. I'd put a gauge on the house side to see what you get, and what adjustment to the valve is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Home Depot has this on their site. No doubt soldering is better, but I've never soldered before, not sure this is a place I'd want to risk failure. I'd want to add a gauge if possible so I could easily monitor the pressure, I'd like to add a gauge to the house water too. Surely adding gauges wouldn't be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 I figured someone would make one. Soldering is easy. You clean (scratch up down to fresh, shiny copper) both pieces- sandpaper on the outside part, and a wire brush sized for the inside of the mating part, spread flux on both pieces, slide together, heat one side of the joint with a propane torch while holding the end of the solder to the other side. When the solder flows, pull the heat away. Wipe with a clean rag. Let cool, and you're done. Little skill required. You don't have to hold the solder to the other side of the joint all the time, but until you get a feel for how much heat is needed without boiling all the flux out of the joint, that's the way I teach someone who hasn't done it before. http://www.homedepot.com/c/how_to_solder_copper_pipes_HT_PG_PL You can buy everything you need to solder and the valve in the first link, come out about the same price as the sharkbite valve, and sleep better at night. For a gauge, you would need a tee/adaptor with a female threaded side entry to match the gauge. Solder the tee in, Teflon tape the threads on the gauge and screw it into place. edited to add: I looked for the adaptor tee online for the gauge, and couldn't find one right off. You might need to use a reducing tee and solder in a 1/4" NPT female threaded adaptor into the side entry in the tee. NPT = National Pipe Thread, but the bins will be marked NPT. You should be able to find everything you need for that in the plumbing aisles in Lowes or Home Depot. This is where the soldering setup will come in handy again. I wouldn't want to live in a house with copper pipes, and not be set up to solder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 $300. is reasonable for that job, if it is done by a licensed plumber. By the time you buy everything you need and risk not soldering properly and spring a leak when your not home flooding everything, 300 will look a lot sweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Good info, thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 If it holds when you're done, it should be fine. As soon as you see the solder flow around the joint, take the heat away. If it was cleaned thoroughly, and flux put on both pieces, it will be as good as anyone can do. It's not difficult to do. I have a couple of these torches just because I like them: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-TS4000T-Trigger-Start-Torch-Head-336657/202185055 They don't last forever though. I have one of these that I've had for probably 40 years that still works. It just requires another source to light it other than pulling a trigger. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-5-Piece-Brass-Pencil-Flame-Plumbing-Torch-Kit-PK1001-330982/203368715 The $300 is for all the time required for the plumber to get there, spend time talking about it, and other wasted time. It's not for the ten minutes required to do the job. I would feel stupid if I had to pay someone 300 bucks for such a simple job. I wouldn't live in a house with copper pipes and not know how to solder, and have a kit I could grab at short notice when I needed to. Even if you produce $300 in a half days work after taxes, and you piddle away a half day over doing this the first time, it will still be time well spent. You will have the soldering setup, and skill, for the late night repair you need sometime in the future. I put copper pipes in the house we live in when I first built it in 1980. I'll bet I've had to do repairs to it a half dozen times or more before I finally got tired of it, and replaced it all with plastic after about 20 years. The leaks never occured when I didn't have something else to do. It's not the one and done like a lot of people seem to think it is. It doesn't really corrode, but it does erode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 10 hours ago, Tom King said: The $300 is for all the time required for the plumber to get there, spend time talking about it, and other wasted time. I'm not going to disagree that in the long run he will save money doing this himself if he plans to do other projects..But here are a few things to think about. He has to buy the PRV, atleast 10' of 1" copper (does he know L from M from a hole in the ground?) Fittings, possibly a valve and unions, pipe dope, soldering outfit (solder is almost $20 a roll), teflon tape, pipe supports to hold that heavy PRV, might need a powder accuated gun or some tapcons for wood on the walls..See where this is going? Now he didn't save $300. he's lucky if he saves $40 bucks. I also don't agree that if it doesn't leak when he walks away that it won't ever leak. I've seen fittings burnt by rookies that only have a solder cap holding them together, water hammer and time can make them blow apart. Plumbers are licensed for a reason and going in totally blind without someone with experience guiding him is not the greatest of ideas. In short, you have a lifetime of experience working on houses, he never soldered a joint in his life. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 I don't understand why he needs to buy more 1" pipe. Just cut what's there, and put it in. There is some sort of pressure reducing valve already there, with a union on one end, and a threaded adaptor on the other. It might even be that the one there only needs to be replaced, and that doesn't even require soldering. A failed soldered joint is caused by some simple reason like didn't take time to clean both pieces thoroughly, or holding the heat on it too long and boiling all the flux out of the joint before touching the solder to it. I've never had to redo one in my life, but have come behind plumbers and fixed their work. I am meticulous by habit though. It really is an easy thing to do, and anyone who can work with tools to do woodworking, should be able to do it. I got my plumbing license in 1975. I had never put two pieces of pipe together in my life before getting 100 on the test, so having a license doesn't necessarily have anything to do with experience. For the test, you were given a rough drawing of a four story school building, and had to size all the pipe. It was open book. I was first to finish in a group of about 100, and I expect most, if not all of the others had some experience with plumbing. I had built my first house the year before, and hired subcontractors I never hired a subcontractor again. There was not a single question about how to join pipe. There were guys who had been plumbers for decades taking the test for their third and fourth times, who just couldn't pass the test to get a license. In relation to woodworking skills, being able to cut and solder copper pipe together ranks about a factor of 40 easier on a skill level than being able to sharpen a plane iron or chisel. There is enough solder and flux in the kit with the cheap propane torch that I linked to earlier, to do many joints. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janello Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 6 hours ago, Tom King said: I don't understand why he needs to buy more 1" pipe. Just cut what's there, and put it in. There is some sort of pressure reducing valve already there, with a union on one end, and a threaded adaptor on the other. It might even be that the one there only needs to be replaced, and that doesn't even require soldering. A failed soldered joint is caused by some simple reason like didn't take time to clean both pieces thoroughly, or holding the heat on it too long and boiling all the flux out of the joint before touching the solder to it. I've never had to redo one in my life, but have come behind plumbers and fixed their work. I am meticulous by habit though. It really is an easy thing to do, and anyone who can work with tools to do woodworking, should be able to do it. I got my plumbing license in 1975. I had never put two pieces of pipe together in my life before getting 100 on the test, so having a license doesn't necessarily have anything to do with experience. For the test, you were given a rough drawing of a four story school building, and had to size all the pipe. It was open book. I was first to finish in a group of about 100, and I expect most, if not all of the others had some experience with plumbing. I had built my first house the year before, and hired subcontractors I never hired a subcontractor again. There was not a single question about how to join pipe. There were guys who had been plumbers for decades taking the test for their third and fourth times, who just couldn't pass the test to get a license. In relation to woodworking skills, being able to cut and solder copper pipe together ranks about a factor of 40 easier on a skill level than being able to sharpen a plane iron or chisel. There is enough solder and flux in the kit with the cheap propane torch that I linked to earlier, to do many joints. I didn't mean to come off as debbie downer or to scare him away from trying. You have given him some great pointers to get him started. I just wanted him to be aware that the $300. price tag isn't really bad and he's not getting ripped off. In any case, my point was more, you don't know what you'll run into and it may take a few trips to home depot and more dollars than you think to go at this your self. Having said that, you can't learn anything new unless you try! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 30 minutes ago, Janello said: I just wanted him to be aware that the $300. price tag isn't really bad and he's not getting ripped off. This is good to know. He might not really wanna do the work himself, in which case, I would be comforted to know it is a reasonable quote. That said, Tom also linked to some good stuff to get him started if he wants to learn somethin'. I know I enjoyed this thread, so thanks to both of ya @Janello & @Tom King. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted July 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 8 hours ago, Tom King said: There is some sort of pressure reducing valve already there, with a union on one end, and a threaded adaptor on the other. It might even be that the one there only needs to be replaced, and that doesn't even require soldering. That pressure reducing valve is for the interior water, it's working just fine. Really, my line of thinking was that if I could buy a valve with Sharkbite fittings for $50 and it would be sufficient, I didn't want to pay $250 for labor. I'm totally cool with learning a new skill and you've talked me into picking up a kit and learning....but maybe not on this. If their $300 price isn't unreasonable, I'll let them do it. Those pressures seem high and I don't want to end up replacing the sprinkler components because I dragged my feet. Also, with the recent events around the country, I will be working a lot more over the next couple of months...I don't want to rush this job myself and have a pipe let go when my wife is home and I'm not. I can learn to solder and be more prepared for the next project. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 Send me your address, and I'll send you a box of fittings and pipe you can practice on. I have more than I'll ever use, left over from the 70s and 80s when that's what I used. Even though I'll never come close to using the vast majority of it, it's in the "too good to throw away" junk category, so I'll be glad to put it to a good use. I doubt I have any 1" stuff, but plenty of 1/2 and 3/4 which works exactly the same way. The important thing to remember is not to get burned. I went to some 6 night class at the Community College before I took the Plumbing test bacl then. There was a really old guy in the class. He'd probably been doing plumbing for fifty years, but could never pass the test. The teacher asked him is he could share some of his wisdom from experience. He thought for a shot time and said, "If you mess wit dat plasic pipe, you gonna get glue all over you. If you mess wit dat coppa pipe, you gonna get burnt". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 It takes very little practice, but good attention to detail to sweat pipe. Around here the plumbers pride themselves on "pretty" work, meaning no solder glops etc. I can see this thing both ways. If anything should fail, you can call on the plumber's liability. In that way think of half the fee as an insurance premium. Things are not likely to fail. I am with Tom here as I do my own plumbing in all types of fittings. My state still allows that in my own home. It is really a flip of the coin decision until you've tried it. The shutoff upstream is a blessing. If you mess up at first, your house still has water. Many of us curse our way through our first projects because we are running to the hardware while toilets are full and cannot be flushed or meals cannot be prepared. You shouldn't have that problem. The other big concern is burning the house. Pipe against concrete is your friend. Watch a plumber or two on YouTube first. Little things make a big difference (like cleaning all around the cut area before you cut. The pipe is being held still before you cut but flops a bit after.) If you call a plumber though, I won't think less of you. It's your money and not mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 P.S. Verify that the ground bonded to your water pipe meets code in your area. That looks like a big cable for your house service entrance and a lot of areas will not let you use water pipes to go to ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapid Roger Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 I'm 72 yo and learned when I was about 42, I don't mess with plumbing. There are people out there that make a living doing plumbing and I'm not one of them. Suffice it to say, I spent more money on trips to the hardware store and fittings and more time that would have been put to better use on one small job than if I had just hired a plumber in the first place. It took me two days to do what a plumber could have done in 30 minutes and I would have had a sort of guarantee that it wouldn't leak. I do some DIY stuff and electrical problems around the house don't bother me much but, PLUMBING is not my thing! In fact, my wife has a call in for a plumber right now to fix a leaky out side faucet that I won't touch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 I'm almost in the boat with Roger. I HATE to work any sort if plumbing, at least after it has been wet. I'll do it, but it is ALWAYS a frustrating experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted August 7, 2016 Report Share Posted August 7, 2016 Sweating joints isn't hard. The biggest problem people have is that they heat the wrong spot which causes the solder to not wick into the joint. I used to love watching my dad sweat pipes when working in the house. I loved the torch, especially when he upgraded to a piezoelectric starter tip. When I was 11 I would carve things into pine and would char the face of the boards for contrast and accent. Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socoj2 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 On 7/12/2016 at 7:59 AM, Tom King said: Send me your address, and I'll send you a box of fittings and pipe you can practice on. I have more than I'll ever use, left over from the 70s and 80s when that's what I used. Even though I'll never come close to using the vast majority of it, it's in the "too good to throw away" junk category, so I'll be glad to put it to a good use. I doubt I have any 1" stuff, but plenty of 1/2 and 3/4 which works exactly the same way. The important thing to remember is not to get burned. I went to some 6 night class at the Community College before I took the Plumbing test bacl then. There was a really old guy in the class. He'd probably been doing plumbing for fifty years, but could never pass the test. The teacher asked him is he could share some of his wisdom from experience. He thought for a shot time and said, "If you mess wit dat plasic pipe, you gonna get glue all over you. If you mess wit dat coppa pipe, you gonna get burnt". How much of the 3/4 stuff you have? ill pay you 30% more the scrap copper price for them? =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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