Problems with LN O1 chisels

[FarRed]

I bought three Lie-Nielsen O1 chisels back in Dec 2013—1/4, ½, and 3/4.  They never performed a well as I expected, especially considering the cost.  It only became obvious lately when I used them on white oak.  Flash forward to this year when I bought two more chisels, and since LN stopped offering O1, I bought 3/8 and 1 inch A2 chisels.  All five have 30 degree bevels sharpened on 1200 grit diamond stones, with and without stropping, but the O1s are terrible with white oak.  Example—chopping straight into the oak—no prying, etc--after three medium mallet taps I can already see fracturing on the edge.  After chopping out a dovetail, they have to be re-sharpened.  The 1/4 is the best of the bunch, but still fractured after several taps. 

The A1s, however, are fine—no fracturing.

Embarrassing (for LN), I recently bought a set of Narex CrM chisels for $100 because Amazon said they’d deliver the SAME day, which I thought a good reason as any to buy a new set of chisels.  Surprisingly, they perform better.

I called LN and they were helpful, gave some suggestions, even offered to test them if I send them in with a note explaining the problem.  They won’t refund, only pro-rate toward some new A1s.  Before I spend the money shipping, however, does anyone have any ideas of what might be doing wrong with the LNs?

[Llama]

It is my understanding that 01 chisels are better for paring duties than for chopping. 

[Eric.]

How far back have you ground the bevels?  In my experience, the very tips of brand new chisels tend to be slightly more brittle than the steel buried just behind.  Possibly try grinding back 1/16" or so.  You can also try a slightly steeper angle, perhaps 35*, if you're really whacking them.  If you're really whacking them, you might switch to a mortise chisel.  Bench chisels are designed more for light taps and small amounts of material removal.  Mortise chisels are for heavy chopping and serious hogging.

[Just Bob]

I am not claiming to be an expert, but i use alot of O1.  O1 is brittle when it first quenched.  When I heat treat O1 it comes out of the quench somewhere between 63 - 65rc  if I drop the steel at that point it will shatter like glass.  Once tempered back it holds a great edge and is not brittle.  I suspect that your chisels were not tempered correctly, it happens, and I would send them back for testing. 

[TerryMcK]

A2 steel is a hard-wearing steel. I have found it holds an edge better than O1 steel in operations that tend to abuse the edge, such as chopping out dovetail waste.
 I prefer O1 for paring chisels and have found that O1 is superior to A2 at low sharpening angles (essential that's no more than about 30°). So a paring chisel in O1 that is sharpened at 27° with micro bevel will last longer than a paring chisel in A2 at that same low angle. But move that angle up to 35° and the game changes in my opinion. That’s when A2 shines and lasts much longer.
I would be inclined to retain the O1s, lower the main bevel angle to 25 and dedicate them to paring. That's why I have so many chisels.

 

[h3nry]

I think all my chisels and planes are O1, so I can't compare to any other steels. I sharpen them once at the beginning of a project, I strop often, and maybe if it's a size that gets used a lot it'll need sharpening again mid project - and all my work is with hand-tools. If you're only getting one dovetail done between sharpening, then something is wrong, and it's not because it's O1 steel.

< after three medium mallet taps I can already see fracturing on the edge >

The steel on my chisels never fractures! Even if those mallet taps are heavier than they should be. The edge eventually dulls, but it never fractures.

[Mick S]

I have a set of LN A2 bench chisels purchased maybe 3 years ago. They performed well until I started cleaning up some through mortises in mesquite. Similar scenario to the OP, edge broke down almost immediately. I've since reground all the bevels back about 1/16" - to 1/8". I have done some light chopping in mesquite and ash and they seem to be holding up well. 

[Tom King]

No advice.  I've never seen that, but all my chisels are old ones.  I always thought it strange that LN stopped offering 01, and wonder if there is some reason we didn't hear.

[FarRed]

Thanks for all the help.  This sounds very much like the discussions of Japanese chisels, and blue vs white steel.  Traditional white steel takes a sharp edge quickly and is used for paring; blue are not as sharp but tougher for chopping.  It still sounds like there is a problem with the tempering on my O1s.

The reason I first went with the O1 was my experience with a Hock O1 plane blade.  I have it in a wooden plane with a fence, using it strictly for jointing edges because I can't plane 90 degree edge to save my life.  I use it a LOT but only have to sharpen it perhaps once/twice a year.  Now it makes sense--there's a big difference between planing and chopping.

[wtnhighlander]

Do you notice edge failure on all the chisels in the set? I have a set of Sheffield "Footprint" chisels (inherited), of which the 1/2" holds a great edge, while the 1/4" crumples under the mildest of use.

[FarRed]

I bought three O1s together--1/4, 1/2, and 3/4.  The 1/4 is the best.

[derekcohen]

You may be interested in some research I completed comparing PM-V11 (Veritas), White Steel (Koyamaichi), A2 (Blue Spruce) and O1 (vintage Stanley 750) chisel steels in chopping:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

The PM and White Steel were head and shoulders above the A2 and O1 steels. A2 held an edge nearly twice as long as the O1, but neither amounted to more than a small faction of the work put in by the other steels.

One of the reasons why O1 has been dropped by LN is likely to be the difficulty in manufacturing blades made with this steel. The problems lie in the warping during heat treating, and then the corrections required. It has a much higher rejection rate than A2, which is fairly reliable to produce. That said, many prefer the edge off a O1 blade, usually by those who use woods that are less abrasive or hard. Once you move to abrasive and hard woods, you will want to use a steel that holds its edge longer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[andrew-in-austin]

That was a fantastic review.