End table joinery help

[dlmorgan999]

I am relatively new to woodworking.  Over the last few months, I've built a bunch of shop furniture (an enclosure for my X-Carve, and stands for my crosscut saw, planer, and router table), and I've acquired a very nice collection of tools (Grizzy G0513X2 17" bandsaw, Sawstop PCS table saw, Grizzly G0490XW 8" jointer, Dewalt DW735 planer, HF dust collector).

Now I'm ready to tackle a project that's a bit nicer and more challenging.  I have a need for a taller end table, and I designed something in Fusion 360.  The size is 720mm in all directions (length, width, height).  The top will be a panel that I'll assemble from Cherry boards.  The sides and shelf are Cherry plywood that I am planning to edge band where needed.  The legs will be cut from 8/4 Cherry.

In the design, I cut notches in the four corners of the shelf to accommodate the legs.  The sides are just wedged between the top and shelf.  I designed it a while back, and now that I know more, I realized that I don't know how to join the pieces.  I've done enough research to know that I need to account for movement on the top.  I used pocket hole joinery for much of my shop furniture, and I suspect I could use that here in some fashion, at least for some of the joinery.  

I'm continuing to search for ideas on the forum, but I figured I would also post this.  It would be great to get advice or suggestions from some of the many experienced people here on the forum.  Thanks in advance! 

[Ronn W]

Don't know what thickness your plywood is but I would suggest adding a top and bottom rail (don't have to be too big) from leg to leg on the sides and back and routing a dado into the legs to and rails to receive the plywood. This will assure a very stiff and solid frame.  You can also rout a dado into the lower rails to receive that bottom shelf.  if the shelf is plywood just glue it in the dados, if the shelf is solid lumber, just glue the center 2 inches of the end grains in their dados and let the edge grain (probably the back edge) move in the dados.  For the top I like to use metal  table top figure eights installed at angle.  They will accomodate the movement of the top.

You will probably get a lot of different suggestions from this forum.  Final choice is yours.

[dlmorgan999]

Thanks Ronn.  Yeah - I figure I'll get lots of suggestions, but I see that as a good thing.  The plywood is 3/4" and I am using that for the shelf.  I'm at work right now, but when I have more time, I'm going to crunch more on what you said.  I will say that using dadoes were one option I was thinking about.

[Dknapp34]

If it were me, I would do solid wood all around the case, so the wood moves the same amount together. I would attach the top to the case sides with wedged through mortises or regular mortise and tenons and the bottom of the case would be dovetailed to the sides.

Using plywood sides, however, you could just use those table top clip things (I forget what they're called), or you could make your own clips out of wood. They are designed to accommodate wood movement.

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[dlmorgan999]

I already bought the wood, so I want to stick with plywood this time around (although I may regret that, depending on how challenging the edge banding process turns out to be ).  The post from Ronn lead me to researching figure eights (I didn't know what they were).  I saw several references to these.  They are very inexpensive and people seem to like them.

I was hoping to avoid the use of rails or aprons, purely for aesthetic reasons, but I may not have much of a choice.  

[Eric.]

That's kind of an odd engineering job on that table, to be honest.  Research the design of a basic Shaker end table, and follow that as a template.  Marc also has a great Guild build for that table which IMO is one of the best starter projects for new woodworkers.  Learning to design a piece of furniture properly is part of a woodworker's skill set.  Don't wing it.

 

https://thewoodwhispererguild.com/projects/shaker-table/

 

 

[JohnDi]

Are you going to pocket screw the sides and back to the legs?

you said that they are just "wedged" or will the panels be in dados in the rails?

 

 

[dlmorgan999]

Thanks for the links Eric.  I'll admit that it is a bit of an odd design, but it's filling a very specific need.  It will be sitting in a corner between a love seat and sofa, and as such, you'll really only see the top.   I have a table there now,  but it's much shorter than I would like. 

Initially I didn't have a shelf in the design, but there was space available (although there will be a subwoofer below it) and I have lots of little stuff (remote controls, home theater PC keyboards, etc.) that I don't normally need so I figured that (although not ideal) this would be a good place to hide them.  Unfortunately, due to the limited space in front of the table (there will only be about eight inches of space between the front of the table and the end of the love seat), I'm not sure how practical a drawer would be (even the shelf isn't the best, but it might work just a bit better).  To learn more though, and to support Marc, I may buy and build that project anyway and use it elsewhere.

JohnDi: what I meant was that in the design, the sides are just butted up against the top and shelf - I didn't think about joinery during the design process (oops).  I haven't actually built anything yet.  As to the pocket screw question, that's what I was looking for advice on.  I don't yet have any experience with any joinery other than pocket screws but I'm more than happy to do research and learn a new technique.  I was just hoping to get some suggestions and then do a deep internet dive to learn more about them.

 

[Eric.]

18 minutes ago, dlmorgan999 said:

Thanks for the links Eric.  I'll admit that it is a bit of an odd design, but it's filling a very specific need.  It will be sitting in a corner between a love seat and sofa, and as such, you'll really only see the top.   I have a table there now,  but it's much shorter than I would like. 

 

One thing I learned early on...never build anything for a specific space in your house.  You may have a plan to put a certain piece in a certain place, but don't half-ass some part of the build because "it will never be seen."  Because, inevitably, you'll eventually move that piece to somewhere else and regret it.  Build every piece as if it's gonna be viewed from every angle, and you'll end up not having to kick yourself nearly as much down the road.  Take it from someone who's been there more times than he likes to admit.

[dlmorgan999]

That's a really good point Eric, and something I hadn't thought about - thanks for the advice!  It looks like I'll be revisiting the design. 

[h3nry]

Your mistake was to build all your shop furniture with pocket screws. Now you want to build something nicer and the only joint you have practiced is the pocket-screw joint. I'm sure you could just screw it all together just fine if that's what you want.

But ... since your objective for this is to step up your game, and you're not lacking the tools ... go out and buy one more cherry board and make the aprons out of solid wood too.  You'll end up using that plywood on another project one day so it won't go to waste. Practice a couple of mortise and tenon joints, and end up with something you'll be even more proud of.

alternatively ... bricks under the legs of the existing table to raise it up - since you can only see the top nobody will know .

[Dknapp34]

If you don't want to buy the guild video (which you should do), the April 2016 issue of Fine Woodworking has a bedside table that is similar to your design.  You might want to check that out for some ideas about how to do the joinery.  

[dlmorgan999]

H3nry: agreed on the pocket hole screws.  The last few days, I've been working on learning and practicing new things, as I definitely do want to up my game.  I don't have a problem buying more cherry board.  I went with plywood based on some research I had done, and after talking with a friend.  I figured this would minimize movement issues.  Having said that, I'm happy to learn how to do it with solid wood sides.  Also, I already had mortise and tenon joinery as one of the next things on my list of stuff to learn and practice.

Dknapp34: I was already leaning towards buying the guild video.  Last night, I looked at the store and found three or four videos that I think I'll buy (which is nice, because once you buy three or more, you get 25% off).  The ones that interest me should teach me a wide variety of useful skills.

Thanks for all the input everyone!  I'm in no particular hurry on this project, and so based on the comments so far, I can see that it would probably be best to do a bunch more research and practicing before starting the build.
 

[BeautysBeast]

Not sure where your located, but if you need another cherry board, and your close to TN, your welcome to come on over and pick one out of the pile. I have plenty.

Sounds like you've gotten some really sound advice. Good luck, and make sure to keep a journal so we can see.

[dlmorgan999]

Thanks for the offer - that's very nice of you.  I live just outside of Portland, OR, and I'm fortunate to have a very nice hardwood source nearby.

I'm currently in the process of watching the guild video on the Shaker table (I did end up buying three projects).   I'm not really a fan of the Shaker style, and it doesn't fit with my current decor, but I'm still learning a bunch of useful stuff from the video.

[Eric.]

56 minutes ago, dlmorgan999 said:

it doesn't fit with my current decor

That never stopped me before. 

I think most woodworkers with curiosity end up with a hodge-podge of styles in their houses.  I know my decor makes absolutely no sense.  Everything looks good to me, but there's no rhyme or reason for anything.  I build whatever floats my boat that week.  If people don't like it, they can let the door hit 'em in the ass on their way out.

[mat60]

LOL...You nailed it Eric.

[Coop]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 5:15 PM, Eric. said:

That's kind of an odd engineering job on that table, to be honest.  Research the design of a basic Shaker end table, and follow that as a template.  Marc also has a great Guild build for that table which IMO is one of the best starter projects for new woodworkers.  Learning to design a piece of furniture properly is part of a woodworker's skill set.  Don't wing it.

 

https://thewoodwhispererguild.com/projects/shaker-table/

 

 

Eric, you commented on another thread about using metal drawer glides on drawers, as opposed side mounted wooden slides. As I don't see a groove cut into the drawer sides on this table, would there be a runner on the bottom or does it just rest and slide on the bottom of the frame?

[Eric.]

My comment was that I dislike metal slides in all situations except for kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanities.  My personal opinion is that there's no place for metal slides in fine furniture.  Don't freak out...I said it's my personal opinion.  Of course, I am right.

On the Shaker table Guild build, we used "shims" inside the aprons to create a piston fit for the drawer.

[wtnhighlander]

Nice thing about the Shaker table, it is such a basic piece of furniture, there are a gazillion ways to tweak / customize / restyle it to be your very own.

[dlmorgan999]

20 hours ago, Eric. said:

Don't freak out...I said it's my personal opinion.  Of course, I am right.

I love it!

 

11 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

Nice thing about the Shaker table, it is such a basic piece of furniture, there are a gazillion ways to tweak / customize / restyle it to be your very own.

Indeed.  Of course if you restyle it too much, then it isn't exactly Shaker style anymore, but I'm okay with that.  The video is definitely great for both learning techniques and as a source of design ideas to apply to other projects.

[dlmorgan999]

I'm getting very close to finishing my end table.  I redesigned it using tips from this thread, and from the shaker table guild project.  

It's all done using solid wood (no plywood).  Everything is Cherry except the drawer sides / bottom which are poplar, and the drawer guides which are Pacific Coast Maple.

I bought a Domino 500, and this was the first project I used it for.  It worked out great!

I made various mistakes during the build, but I learned a huge amount, and the mistakes are mostly invisible. Here are a couple of photos:

[Eric.]

Looking good man.  For the next one I challenge you to put the Domino in the drawer and learn traditional M&T.  You're doing yourself a disservice buying that machine too soon in your journey.  You gotta walk before you can run, son!

You ain't gonna taper those legs?  I think your design would benefit in a huge way from just a slight taper...but it's your table.

[RichardA]

7 hours ago, dlmorgan999 said:

I'm getting very close to finishing my end table.  I redesigned it using tips from this thread, and from the shaker table guild project.  

It's all done using solid wood (no plywood).  Everything is Cherry except the drawer sides / bottom which are poplar, and the drawer guides which are Pacific Coast Maple.

I bought a Domino 500, and this was the first project I used it for.  It worked out great!

I made various mistakes during the build, but I learned a huge amount, and the mistakes are mostly invisible. Here are a couple of photos:

That front apron and drawer front should have come from the same board!  For it's continuity!

[JohnDi]

4 hours ago, Eric. said:

You ain't gonna taper those legs?  I think your design would benefit in a huge way from just a slight taper...but it's your table.

+1 for tapering the legs. If you're already glued up, this would be a good time to learn how to use a hand plane.

Good looking table, and nice first project!