Absolute beginner apologies in advance

[Gillian Cordiner]

Hi there I'm total novice sorry to be so uneducated, here goes I have just bought some lovely ercol elm and beech dining chairs one has a huge spit about 5 mm wide in the seat pan. What glue should I use and what's a Dutchman ?? Is that a wood support underneath .. Should I put one on and if so what format should it be ie. Thickness and wood should it be screwed in ? Thanks in advance the chairs are lovely I want to do a great job 

[Mark J]

Welcome on board, Gillian.

Not sure if I'll have a good suggestion for you, but it might help all the forum members out there if you could post a close up picture of the split.  

[Eric.]

How dare you be so uneducated!

Epoxy is one of the few adhesives that is gap-filling.  That's what I'd use.  Regular PVA wood glue probably won't help.  Get a couple clamps, try to fill the crack as best as possible, keep your fingers crossed.  Come back for more help anytime!

A dutchman is an inlaid piece of wood with a bowtie shape that helps prevent a crack from coming apart further.

Image taken from google...

[Ryan Grondin]

Welcome Gillian, glad to have you. Can you post a close up? Dutchman or some call it a butterfly inlay looks something like this.. 

What Eric said lol.

 

[..Kev]

To add to Eric's solid advice, use blue painters tape on the underside to keep the epoxy contained where you need it.

[sjk]

And once you have made the structural repair, you will most likely need to repair or redo the finish on the chair.  (You'll have to sand to remove any glue/epoxy squeeze-out, and to make the bow-ties be flush with the chair seat, which likely has some curve to it).

[Coop]

I've never seen a guy get this many answers in such a short time. Welcome ma'am and good luck with your glue up!

[Gillian Cordiner]

Thanks guys I think the Dutchman looks beyond my skills at the moment do you think a brace of some sort on the underside of it would help, I'm going to shed today to work on some other pieces I'll photograph the split and post later see if that helps. Is the epoxy a filler or glue is it two part. Apologies for the amateurish nature of my questions .. I'm a jeweller by trade I know lots about metal !!! Wood err not so much

 

38 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

I've never seen a guy get this many answers in such a short time. Welcome ma'am and good luck with your glue up!

Ha ?

39 minutes ago, sjk said:

And once you have made the structural repair, you will most likely need to repair or redo the finish on the chair.  (You'll have to sand to remove any glue/epoxy squeeze-out, and to make the bow-ties be flush with the chair seat, which likely has some curve to it).

I intend on refinishing them anyhow but wanted to get the structure sorted first

 

40 minutes ago, sjk said:

And once you have made the structural repair, you will most likely need to repair or redo the finish on the chair.  (You'll have to sand to remove any glue/epoxy squeeze-out, and to make the bow-ties be flush with the chair seat, which likely has some curve to it).

 

[..Kev]

The issue with a "brace" under it is that it will restrict natural wood movement and probably cause more problems.

Yes, the epoxy is a 2 part mix.  I use West Systems epoxy but, it's pretty expensive and if you only need it for this one fix then, it seems a waste of money.  I've seen some here have good luck with 5 minute epoxy that you can pick up at the big box store - Lowes, HD, etc..  

A picture will help us but, like Eric said, some good clamping pressure with the epoxy may do the trick.

Although the dutchman is a little more advanced, there's lots of youtube videos out there on them.

[wtnhighlander]

Nothing else to add, except to say Welcome, Gillian!

[Chet]

Yes welcome, the guys have you headed in the right direction with your repair.

[wdwerker]

I have used Devcon 2 ton epoxy for the type of repair you need to do. 2 little bottles for under $30. Sets in 30 minutes. I get it at my local hardware store. It's also available at Lowe's . I suggest you practice on a scrap with a crack in it before you tackle the chair .

[Gixxerjoe04]

 THIS is a.......

[Gillian Cordiner]

48 minutes ago, Eric. said:

How dare you be so uneducated!

Epoxy is one of the few adhesives that is gap-filling.  That's what I'd use.  Regular PVA wood glue probably won't help.  Get a couple clamps, try to fill the crack as best as possible, keep your fingers crossed.  Come back for more help anytime!

A dutchman is an inlaid piece of wood with a bowtie shape that helps prevent a crack from coming apart further.

Image taken from google...

 

51 minutes ago, Gixxerjoe04 said:

 THIS is a.......

See I'm getting it all wrong!!!!

1 hour ago, wdwerker said:

I have used Devcon 2 ton epoxy for the type of repair you need to do. 2 little bottles for under $30. Sets in 30 minutes. I get it at my local hardware store. It's also available at Lowe's . I suggest you practice on a scrap with a crack in it before you tackle the chair .

I'm in Australia sure there will be a version here thanks though I learn quick and my mind likes information !!

[drzaius]

For this repair you want maximum adhesion & strength. My experience is that 5 minute epoxy does not bond as well & is not as strong as the slower setting type. The 5 minute stuff is great for lots of repairs, but for this I'd use slow set epoxy.

[Gillian Cordiner]

So here is a close up of the split not as big as I thought you can also see my days effort removing crappy yellow evil varnish 5 hours later ?

[Gillian Cordiner]

6 hours ago, Ryan Grondin said:

Welcome Gillian, glad to have you. Can you post a close up? Dutchman or some call it a butterfly inlay looks something like this.. 

What Eric said lol.

 

 

6 hours ago, TIODS said:

The issue with a "brace" under it is that it will restrict natural wood movement and probably cause more problems.

Yes, the epoxy is a 2 part mix.  I use West Systems epoxy but, it's pretty expensive and if you only need it for this one fix then, it seems a waste of money.  I've seen some here have good luck with 5 minute epoxy that you can pick up at the big box store - Lowes, HD, etc..  

A picture will help us but, like Eric said, some good clamping pressure with the epoxy may do the trick.

Although the dutchman is a little more advanced, there's lots of youtube videos out there on them.

I've posted crack is the slow cure epoxy the 30 min one ?

[Rex Edgar]

Take a deep breath, fellows and, stand away from the keyboard!

[Gillian Cordiner]

23 minutes ago, Rex Edgar said:

Take a deep breath, fellows and, stand away from the keyboard!

???

 

 

[Rex Edgar]

6 minutes ago, Gillian Cordiner said:

???

 

 

Young Lady, 

.     They know who they are...........welcome to the forum!

9 hours ago, K Cooper said:

I've never seen a guy get this many answers in such a short time. Welcome ma'am and good luck with your glue up!

K Cooper knows....

[Tpt life]

That looks like glue line separation. That chair may be falling apart and not "splitting." The Dutchman concept may not be best, but all you lose is time. I would try to disassemble the chair enough to clean up that joint and re-glue, but chairs are very tricky. Just thoughts. Don't want to scare you. 

[gee-dub]

3 hours ago, Rex Edgar said:

Take a deep breath, fellows and, stand away from the keyboard!

I'm going to guess that this may be a reaction to the fact that you have a structural issue.  They're both structural but the one that makes me cringe is here:

For the long crack I would be tempted to clean it out carefully with a folded strip of 400 grit sandpaper taking care not to further damage the top (show) edge and blow it out with compressed air.  Run some painter's tape on the seat surface along the edges of the opening where you are going to get squeeze out. 

Spread some decent PVA glue (yellow woodworker's glue) in the crack (you can squirt it in, draw it in with a strip of paper or piece of thread in the tight spots), and clamp it over night.  That's more or less how the joint was done in the first place.  Abuse caused the failure, not the assembly method.

For the crack at the corner where the upright penetrates we have a more serious problem.  Patience is your friend on this one. The potential leverage on that point is fairly high. . . . I'll be back . . .

Darn, I don't have SketchUp on this PC so I'll have to try a description.  I am not opposed to a mechanical assist in these situations.  You could clamp the crack closed, drill a hole perpendicular to the edge, between the back edge and the exposed through-end of the upright.  Sorry about the make-shift diagram.

The long hole should be sized for your pan head or round head screw (not flat head).  You will also want a counter bore as you will use a plug to hide the screw head.  If you use a #8 screw with a consistent diameter like so . . .

. . . the counterbore would generally be a 3/8" hole about 1/2" deep.  You don't have a lot of material to take advantage of so your counterbore should be as shallow as possible; just deep enough to let the head recess with enough counterbore left to hold a plug.

Using the dimple at the bottom of this counterbore hole, drill an 1/8" hole the full length of your screw shaft (I'm guessing 3" by the pics).

Remove the clamp so that the crack reopens.  Put glue or epoxy in the crack and re-clamp.  Run your screw in recessing the head below the chair's edge surface.  Clean out any squeeze out in the counterbore, you'll want room for the plug.  Leave overnight.

After coffee the next morning, remove the clamp, clean up any glue issues and pick up your piece of 3/8" dowel or hardwood plug you acquired while waiting for the glue to dry.  Run some glue in the counterbore with a stick or Q-tip, tap the plug or dowel in with a hammer and let the glue set.

Saw or sand the plug flush.  It should be fairly unnoticeable when you finish is applied except to you.  You will know where it is and think it is a glaring red light with arrows pointing at it.  Don't let that bother you.  We all feel that way about the minor imperfections in our work ;-)

 

[Gillian Cordiner]

1 hour ago, gee-dub said:

I'm going to guess that this may be a reaction to the fact that you have a structural issue.  They're both structural but the one that makes me cringe is here:

For the long crack I would be tempted to clean it out carefully with a folded strip of 400 grit sandpaper taking care not to further damage the top (show) edge and blow it out with compressed air.  Run some painter's tape on the seat surface along the edges of the opening where you are going to get squeeze out. 

Spread some decent PVA glue (yellow woodworker's glue) in the crack (you can squirt it in, draw it in with a strip of paper or piece of thread in the tight spots), and clamp it over night.  That's more or less how the joint was done in the first place.  Abuse caused the failure, not the assembly method.

For the crack at the corner where the upright penetrates we have a more serious problem.  Patience is your friend on this one. The potential leverage on that point is fairly high. . . . I'll be back . . .

Darn, I don't have SketchUp on this PC so I'll have to try a description.  I am not opposed to a mechanical assist in these situations.  You could clamp the crack closed, drill a hole perpendicular to the edge, between the back edge and the exposed through-end of the upright.  Sorry about the make-shift diagram.

The long hole should be sized for your pan head or round head screw (not flat head).  You will also want a counter bore as you will use a plug to hide the screw head.  If you use a #8 screw with a consistent diameter like so . . .

. . . the counterbore would generally be a 3/8" hole about 1/2" deep.  You don't have a lot of material to take advantage of so your counterbore should be as shallow as possible; just deep enough to let the head recess with enough counterbore left to hold a plug.

Using the dimple at the bottom of this counterbore hole, drill an 1/8" hole the full length of your screw shaft (I'm guessing 3" by the pics).

Remove the clamp so that the crack reopens.  Put glue or epoxy in the crack and re-clamp.  Run your screw in recessing the head below the chair's edge surface.  Clean out any squeeze out in the counterbore, you'll want room for the plug.  Leave overnight.

After coffee the next morning, remove the clamp, clean up any glue issues and pick up your piece of 3/8" dowel or hardwood plug you acquired while waiting for the glue to dry.  Run some glue in the counterbore with a stick or Q-tip, tap the plug or dowel in with a hammer and let the glue set.

Saw or sand the plug flush.  It should be fairly unnoticeable when you finish is applied except to you.  You will know where it is and think it is a glaring red light with arrows pointing at it.  Don't let that bother you.  We all feel that way about the minor imperfections in our work ;-)

 

That sounds do able... Even for me, and I'd hate to scrap the chairs just because of one being duff.. Ok I'm going to proceed with caution but the screw seems good idea, I really appreciate the time and explanation I'll attemp to do it justice.. As you say.... I'll be back ..

[gee-dub]

I got to a PC with SketchUp.  This is quick and rough but, may make my ramblings clearer.

[Ryan Grondin]

Gee-Dub has the right idea now that you posted pictures. Re glue that long seperation, get as much glue as you can in the other crack and drive that screw in. Maybe clamp it first if you can, and make sure you pre drill a hole all the way through the seperation, throw some glue in the drill hole too, can't hurt. Good luck and let us see how it turns out!