trialbyfire Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Let me start by saying I don't know if this is a journal or a showcase so if I selected the wrong one please just put it where it goes. This afternoon I had a wild hair spring up and I decided to make my first attempts at some dovetails. I took pictures along the way. Let me know if you see anything crazy. Started with a scrap piece of cedar. Turned it into a rectangle and ran it through the planer a few times to take the cup out. Cut it in half and made my layouts the marks are 11/16" apart starting on the far side as your looking at it. Needed a straight edge for the 7* angle so I set the scroll saw to 7* and cut off a scrap of aspen. Used my marking knives to start the cuts and then pared away all sides of the tails and used this same method of chopping straight down and slicing away the waste. I wasn't really sure which lines I was going to need for the tails so I just traced/drew them all on and shaded in the waste. I purposely made the dovetails long so that I could use my block plane to flush everything at the end. And final product. I spent 4 hours making these dovetails. The only thing I used power tool wise was my scroll saw for the 7* jig. I'm sure I left out something so please ask if you have a question on how or why I did something. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 7* layout aside, the end result looks remarkably like finger joints. Is that cedar soft enough to compress the tails when you drove it together? You layout and cuts look nice and clean. It is unusual to see dovetails that aren't arranged to leave a half-pin on both edges of the board, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Great first attempt! Your joinery looks good and tight! Some suggestions: Ross is correct about the angle Use harder wood - Cedar is pretty soft Pins - You should have a pin on each side of the pin board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Elroy Skimms Posted August 29, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Your first attempt at hand cut dovetails looks far better than my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd attempts using a router & jig. If you'll excuse me, I need to go sob quietly in the corner and think about my life choices. -E 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 A first attempt that goes together without cracking wood is a success. So you did better than me. Although Kev is right...cedar is super soft so it can give you a false sense of success because the fibers will just smash into submission. I'd recommend practicing on walnut, cherry or red maple...something with a Janka rating of around 1000, since that's what most of us use the most. They're also right about the spacing...traditionally there is a half pin at the top and bottom of the joint. Smaller pins will give it a much more elegant look, although they can be slightly more challenging. A couple simple tools make dovetailing far more accurate and successful...a good marking gauge, a good marking knife, and a better dovetail saddle. You don't have to spend a million dollars but the better ones will give you better results. (Not so much the saddle but the gauge and knife are important). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialbyfire Posted August 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 To show just how new this is too be, what angle should I have used? Also, what is the reasoning for said angle? Structural? Aesthetics? I kind of thought you could just go with whatever because unless you put a protractor on it can anyone really tell the difference? I'm curious. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Grondin Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Nice job for a first try... Had you used a harder wood I bet your results would have shown the difference. You should be proud. Keep at it and it will get easier, faster and better. Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Traditionally 1:6 for softwoods and 1:8 for hardwoods. The argument is to use the wider tails in softwood because softwood compresses easily and they could "wiggle loose" over the years, and use less wide tails in hardwoods because hardwoods tend to be more brittle and a wide flare could cause the "corner" of a tail to break off. Ultimately I don't think it matters much structurally. But I like the look of 1:8 and I use hardwoods exclusively, so that's what I use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulldog Posted August 29, 2016 Report Share Posted August 29, 2016 Go up 8 inches, then over one inch. That's 1:8. I know some people mark it all out on the back of a bench hook and then they set the angle with a sliding bevel. I just bought the Veritas dovetail saddle markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Yeah...I find laying out the tails to start to be the toughest part. Here was my crappy first attempt from earlier this month, as you can tell, I didn't quite understand what I was doing ... thought I was giving myself a good shot at those small pins, instead the tails are dangerously thin, which made it super hard to cleanup around the pins, and looks silly....whoops live and learn p.s. as you can see I'm using red oak, which I found a bit difficult when cleaning up the waste with the chisel...should I be using something slightly softer or is this ok for learning? I'm hoping to cut a couple dozen more test pieces this month during vacation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialbyfire Posted August 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 So I have gathered a 2 main things. 1) it's not an angle as much as it is a ratio 2) there should be a pin on top and bottom Did I miss anything? I think I've got some maple I can resaw to try and make a box for the next attempts. I will report back with something... Hopefully something worth the effort. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, trialbyfire said: So I have gathered a 2 main things. 1) it's not an angle as much as it is a ratio 2) there should be a pin on top and bottom Did I miss anything? I think I've got some maple I can resaw to try and make a box for the next attempts. I will report back with something... Hopefully something worth the effort. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk When someone says 1:8 or 1:6 then yes that is ratio...but that will translate directly into an angle. I think 1:4 translates to about 14 degrees for example...but most woodworkers use the ratio. There should be a "half pin" in most cases, not a full pin. A full pin wouldn't leave you with a flat side, so...could be a design thing I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 To answer an earlier question, even red oak is probably a better practice material than cedar. At least it is the proper hardness, although more splintery than walnut, cherry or maple. Lots of folks practice with poplar, but I find it pretty fiberous. Tends to get really fuzzy around the cuts. If oak is giving you trouble during the chisel cleanup, I suggest you search here for discussions on sharpening techniques. . Then return after the year or so it takes to study them all, pick one, and up your chisel game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prov163 Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Eric and Tiods are right. I decided last week to cut a dovetail every night until I had it down. Tonight was night 6. For the first 5 nights I used some scraps I had which were basically pine. I bought some poplar today but didn't feel like milling it tonight but found a scrap piece of walnut. I cut my dovetails in that tonight and decided practicing in hardwood has the following benefits: 1. Hardwood is probably what you'll work in most so why not practice in it? 2. It really helped me with my chisel work. Softwood tears (even with sharp tools) but hardwood pares. Seeing those 3. Tonight I used a marking gauge and knife. I also made knife walls on the end grain. The results of trying the hardwood and using knife lines instead of pencil, made a huge difference. Still a LONG way to go, but give their advice a try! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 24 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said: To answer an earlier question, even red oak is probably a better practice material than cedar. At least it is the proper hardness, although more splintery than walnut, cherry or maple. Lots of folks practice with poplar, but I find it pretty fiberous. Tends to get really fuzzy around the cuts. If oak is giving you trouble during the chisel cleanup, I suggest you search here for discussions on sharpening techniques. . Then return after the year or so it takes to study them all, pick one, and up your chisel game. Yeah I've got a decent sharpening routine now...but I only have bench chisels and I either need to sharpen more often, or just get mortise chisels that will take a little more beating and have been sharepneed to a higher angle to hold the edge better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 6 hours ago, JosephThomas said: Yeah I've got a decent sharpening routine now...but I only have bench chisels and I either need to sharpen more often, or just get mortise chisels that will take a little more beating and have been sharepneed to a higher angle to hold the edge better. You shouldn't need mortise chisels for dovetails...at least not through dovetails in domestic species. If you're dulling your edges that quickly, you're either trying to remove too much material at once, or your chisels suck. Try removing more meat with the fret saw first before you get the chisels out. If that doesn't help, you might consider upgrading your steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 I have narex bench chisels from Lee valley. I might have been trying to take too much off. I read somewhere to always try take away half of what's left, so the first couple chunks are fairly large. I dunno, I'll try next time and see if it helps. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted August 30, 2016 Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 1 hour ago, JosephThomas said: I have narex bench chisels from Lee valley. I might have been trying to take too much off. I read somewhere to always try take away half of what's left, so the first couple chunks are fairly large. I dunno, I'll try next time and see if it helps. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk What angle is your bevel ground? I keep my bench chisels at 30*, mortise chisels at 35*, paring chisels at 25*. The lower the angle the more likely the edge will be to chip. Any angle greater than 30* should be fine for light chopping in the typical domestic hardwoods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialbyfire Posted August 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2016 Are thinner boards any harder to make joinery in than thicker boards? I've got my boards milled and marked for the box Im going to attempt. Have to wait til tomorrow to start cutting the dovetails. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephThomas Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 11 hours ago, Eric. said: What angle is your bevel ground? I keep my bench chisels at 30*, mortise chisels at 35*, paring chisels at 25*. The lower the angle the more likely the edge will be to chip. Any angle greater than 30* should be fine for light chopping in the typical domestic hardwoods. I will check when I'm at home later. I kept the original angle that they had from the factory, it might be 25. I guess that was part of my thinking was that I should get a few mortise chisels and sharpen those to 35 degrees so they'll take a little more damage between sharpenings. 5 hours ago, trialbyfire said: Are thinner boards any harder to make joinery in than thicker boards? I've got my boards milled and marked for the box Im going to attempt. Have to wait til tomorrow to start cutting the dovetails. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk My understanding is that it's ideal to use a sharper angle on the dovetails with thinner stock to give it more strength. Don't see whyit owuld be any easier or difficult though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialbyfire Posted August 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 I got the tails laid out. I did learn that you have to divide the width of the board by an EVEN number to get a half pin on either side. I also learned that what I was considering as sharp for the cedar was not cutting near as well in the maple. So I took some time and rehoned my chisel. I also had the maple split on me chopping out the waste of a half pin I spread it open and shoved as much glue as I could down and in the crack. After I let go I got a little squeeze out so I think I got enough in there just gotta let it dry. Any idea why that split on my like that? Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewyo Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 16 minutes ago, trialbyfire said: I got the tails laid out. I did learn that you have to divide the width of the board by an EVEN number to get a half pin on either side. I also learned that what I was considering as sharp for the cedar was not cutting near as well in the maple. So I took some time and rehoned my chisel. I also had the maple split on me chopping out the waste of a half pin I spread it open and shoved as much glue as I could down and in the crack. After I let go I got a little squeeze out so I think I got enough in there just gotta let it dry. Any idea why that split on my like that? Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk It looks like you may be paring with the board clamped vertical. I think a lot of people lay it down on a waste board as a backer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialbyfire Posted August 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 It looks like you may be paring with the board clamped vertical. I think a lot of people lay it down on a waste board as a backer. Lol I was paring with it flat on the table. It's upright in the picture to make it easier to get the glue in the crack. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewyo Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, trialbyfire said: Lol I was paring with it flat on the table. It's upright in the picture to make it easier to get the glue in the crack. Oh....Right. Maybe there was some checking in the end of the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialbyfire Posted August 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 I can see how you thought I was paring with it vertical like that@davewyo . I'm still getting used to trying to explain things to someone over the Internet so I kinda set that up for failure. I will take a look at the end again but I thought I had cut all the checks off. I assume it's possible that I only cut the visible portions of the checks and did not get what you could call the "hairline" checks? Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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