eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Good morning everybody. I'm working on designing a small cart with a tabletop what will get alot of abuse (it's for the kids). I'd like to find an inexpensive finish that's durable but doesn't look like plastic. I've narrowed my search down to Hpl and melamine. A few questions about Hpl: Is it easy to apply it yourself? Where is a good source to get it? Is it worth the trouble? And melamine: Are there other options available than white? I can't seem to find where to get two sided (solid on one / grain print on other). I'd like to figure out how to use Hpl over melamine preferably simply because I may want to use mdf instead of particleboard. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 The layer on manufactured melamine sheet goods is super thin. It stands up well to washing, but not serious abuse. High pressure laminate (which is also made with melamine) is a lot thicker & will likely withstand the abuse from the kids better. But you have to apply it yourself. Contact cement is the usual adhesive for that. Maybe others can recommend a good contact cement. I used to like the solvent based, but lately the seem to use acetone, or something similar as a solvent. It flashes off so fast that I have a real hard time getting an even coat. It is also super sensitive to over/under drying. You've got to put things together at exactly the right moment. Next time I do something using HPL, I think I'll use a latex based cement. Oh, and welcome to the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Thanks for the info and the welcome. I hear great things about this forum and hope to learn some valuable information. I'm not completely new to woodworking but am also far from being a professional. Everything I learn is from research Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Glad to have you here to learn and contribute, it is a great forum. If @wdwerker sees this he will be able to help. He knows, like, everything about this kind of stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 I recommend using a water based contact cement. Unless you're working outside and you can leave your lamination outside until it's done off gassing. Solvent based contact cement contains some really harsh chemicals. Wear a respirator no matter which you're working with. Get yourself a J roller as well, you'll need it to smooth out the laminate as you lay it down and get even pressure/contact with both glue surfaces. (you apply the cement to both mating surfaces.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Would building a vacuum bag system be worth it? I read a bit about them but never used one. Seems easy enough and it applies even pressure. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, eric.l.mathison said: Would building a vacuum bag system be worth it? I read a bit about them but never used one. Seems easy enough and it applies even pressure. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk If it's just for this one project it's not worth it. For contact cement you don't need to leave your piece in clamps, once you have pressed it firmly down and made contact using the roller, you're done, just leave it to dry a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 A vacuum bag doesn't make enough PSI for contact cement. the J roller is far better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Quick question, what is an example of Hpl? Is a countertop (formica) Hpl? I know what melamine looks like but can't find an actual example. We have some laminated desks etc at our home but not sure if it's Hpl or not. It seems to peel and wear around the edges but has a very slight grain texture to it. If you get it wet, the color comes off. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 HPL is what you see on site built counter tops. It's a little less than 1/16" thick, has the finished color on one side & has a brown scuffed surface on the other. It's made of melamine resins & kraft paper, using heat & high pressure to mush it all together. Some brands are Arborite, Wilsonart, Formica & lots others. Most of the stuff on manufactured desks other low quality (though not necessarily cheap) is just a thin layer of melamine bonded to the surface of MDF or particleboard. It's not very durable at all, color rubs off, peels off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Ah yes I think that's what we have in our kitchen. The only part I don't like is the edges. They have a brown outline. Not necessarily the look you want on a cart. I would be wrapping the entire board in it with edge banding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 If you're going to the trouble of laminating the surface, have you considered just getting a chunk of Corian or other solid-surface counter top? Corian and it's competitors are technically plastic, but they usually look a lot better than melamine or formica (in my opinion) and any damage can be sanded/buffed out. If you have a ReStore or architectural salvage place they probably have a few pieces laying around. or a local cabinet place might cut you a piece. You should be able to cut/shape it using your usual woodworking tools, though burning can be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Ugg so many options but I'm not liking the edge. I may look at Corian. What about spray painting mdf and particleboard? Should I use enamel or latex? My understanding is that with latex is that it doesn't cure hard. So it's easy to scratch and dent. Enamel is harder but takes forever to dry and smelly. Is there a top coat I could put over the latex so it hardens the finish for durability? Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 What will the cart be used for? I do a lot of composite lamination with different materials. Depending on what kind of abuse its going to take would be my deciding factor for material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonPacific Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 1 hour ago, eric.l.mathison said: Ugg so many options but I'm not liking the edge. I may look at Corian. What about spray painting mdf and particleboard? Should I use enamel or latex? My understanding is that with latex is that it doesn't cure hard. So it's easy to scratch and dent. Enamel is harder but takes forever to dry and smelly. Is there a top coat I could put over the latex so it hardens the finish for durability? Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Oh, you could also look for Lab Bench Tops, like you had in school. Those are made of phenolic resin or solid epoxy. Similar to Corian, but less plasticky if you are avoiding that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 What will the cart be used for? I do a lot of composite lamination with different materials. Depending on what kind of abuse its going to take would be my deciding factor for material. Mainly for the kids to put crafting stuff in and use it as a tabletop for gluing, cutting, craft stuff. They are 3 and 5 so they will most likely abuse it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 You cover the side edges first glue & stick when dry then rub w a roller. You trim the edges with a flush cut router bit. I use a fine file and smooth any slight lip until the laminate is exactly flush with the core. Then you glue, stick & route etc the front and back edges. Then the top goes on and the brown lines are only facing sideways instead of straight up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzaius Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 @wdwerker, what kind of contact cement to you like? As I said earlier, the current solvent based ones I've used are worse than terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Why not just a wood top that can be sanded down and refinished when needed? Another option, and this is the manufacturing engineer coming out in me, is a replacable insert. Plexiglass is cheap. Just have the edge trim proud of the base. Cut the insert just a hair undersize and drop it in. Plane the edge flush with the insert. When the insert get beat up, just pull it out and drop another one in. If my main concern was abuse, I'd go with HDPE, but it's a little plastic looking. Also look into Delrin/Acetal. Delein can be bought in black and is extremely impact resistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric.l.mathison Posted September 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 Why not just a wood top that can be sanded down and refinished when needed? Another option, and this is the manufacturing engineer coming out in me, is a replacable insert. Plexiglass is cheap. Just have the edge trim proud of the base. Cut the insert just a hair undersize and drop it in. Plane the edge flush with the insert. When the insert get beat up, just pull it out and drop another one in. If my main concern was abuse, I'd go with HDPE, but it's a little plastic looking. Also look into Delrin/Acetal. Delein can be bought in black and is extremely impact resistant. I've actually been contemplating using a solid wood top. But if I did that I'd want to stain or paint it. The unknown here is what finish and paint to use. Latex vs enamel, GF hard top vs poly. I probably won't use lacquer or shellac. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattF Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 2 hours ago, eric.l.mathison said: I've actually been contemplating using a solid wood top. But if I did that I'd want to stain or paint it. The unknown here is what finish and paint to use. Latex vs enamel, GF hard top vs poly. I probably won't use lacquer or shellac. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk At that age they will not be chewing on the table. I would just do a solid wood top and finish something hard. I cant really talk finish, but I would just use a few coats of good polyurethane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 3 hours ago, eric.l.mathison said: I've actually been contemplating using a solid wood top. But if I did that I'd want to stain or paint it. Why? Just use hardwood, oil it, be done. Let them beat the hell out of it and when they're grown, hand it down to one of them. They'll love it with all of its dents and dings and bruises and teeth marks. I don't understand why you're going through all this trouble for an item you know is gonna get beat up. Just build it out of wood and let it age gracefully the way wood always does. When wood gets beat up, it becomes treasure. When artificial surfaces get beat up, they become trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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