Finishing a wide surface

[Pwk5017]

im going to put the first coat of finish on this pretty big island tonight. It is 6' wide and 7' long. I dont think ive finished something so wide/deep before, so im wondering if people do anything different with such a large area? I was able to reach the middle well enough while sanding, but im concerned about reaching it well to get a consistent brush stroke and not putting my crotch/stomach into the finish i already applied. Is this something best suited to spraying, or can you apply a wiping varnish over this surface effectively? Im 5'-10, so i dont have the wing span of some other members.

[Woodenskye]

I would think spraying is best, however if you don't have the setup, maybe you could apply with the staining pads they use for floors. 

[Gixxerjoe04]

Start from the middle, get it nice and work your way out?  If you have the stuff to spray finish, I'd go that route, just seems like it would be a lot easier even though the only finish I've sprayed has come from a rattle can so that doesn't count.

[AceHoleInOne]

Oh buddy.....anxious time's hmm? You bet on a large surface. In all seriousness, Practice before you use the finish. Rehearse your application strokes. Work out all your dance moves before the real deal. Even pretend dipping your applicator. Gives you a feel of the large surface. 

Start in the middle and work out to each of the sides. Most important keep a wet edge and kick it in high gear and move. No fooling around and don't overwork the finish. Get it on and let it flow out, let the finish do it's thing. 

Also use a raking light over a large surface so you can see how it's going.   

-Ace-

[Coop]

Ace, I've always wondered about the keeping a "wet edge", especially on a larger piece. I could see if it was a long narrow piece where you can start at the end and move toward the other end. But one this size, and you start in the middle, now you have essentially four edges to keep wet and they get bigger with each stroke. How do you address that? Keep working the perimeter?

[rodger.]

I avoid using a brush at all costs.  I typically spray hvlp style, or apply wipe on poly with a rag.  I only brush if I have no other options.

[AceHoleInOne]

 

1 hour ago, K Cooper said:

Ace, I've always wondered about the keeping a "wet edge", especially on a larger piece. I could see if it was a long narrow piece where you can start at the end and move toward the other end. But one this size, and you start in the middle, now you have essentially four edges to keep wet and they get bigger with each stroke. How do you address that? Keep working the perimeter?

Coop, no matter how narrow or how wide the piece, I always start in the middle. Starting in the middle you lay-down the finish thicker and work it out to the edges. Should you start with an edge and get a little thick, ya get runs. I like this method especially, so your not working over your freshly laid finish for clothing to touch or what have you.

Your four wet edge concern, the way I reconcile it, I have only 2 wet edges. One is where you start, the other is the edge you're continually working towards you. Make sense?

The wet edge is key for the finish to blend in and become one. Have you ever had to pee so bad while rolling paint on a wall so you stopped in the middle of the wall. Came back and started to roll and now you have a ridge of dry paint that shows where you left off.  

The key on any large surfaces is to move fast and keep it wet.  

 

-Ace- 

[Ronn W]

I watched a video of a professional finisher, a friend of mine, do a table top (not quite as large as your project in less that 5 minutes with a large sponge brush (applicator).  He actually poured (dribbled) ARM-R-Seal on the entire table, spread it around paying no attention to the grain direction and then made his final full length passes, daubing the excess off of the sponge (into a thick folded rag) after each full length stroke. And then walked away.  It worked well.  I would try a practice your dance steps on a large sheet of MDF or plywood first to get a fell for how much you should pour on.  That being said, I am 5'-10" (almost) and a 36" reach would be tough.

Just thinking, If you go the wiping route and wipe it all off so that you do not have to worry about wet edges or exact brush control.  You could wipe it all on and then wipe off starting in the middle.  If you lean over and touch a wet spot it won't matter because you will be wiping it off when you get to that spot.  Just  don't wear your favorite shirt.  Of course it will take more coats this way.

Good luck.

[Coop]

2 hours ago, AceHoleInOne said:

 

Coop, no matter how narrow or how wide the piece, I always start in the middle. Starting in the middle you lay-down the finish thicker and work it out to the edges. Should you start with an edge and get a little thick, ya get runs. I like this method especially, so your not working over your freshly laid finish for clothing to touch or what have you.

Your four wet edge concern, the way I reconcile it, I have only 2 wet edges. One is where you start, the other is the edge you're continually working towards you. Make sense?

The wet edge is key for the finish to blend in and become one. Have you ever had to pee so bad while rolling paint on a wall so you stopped in the middle of the wall. Came back and started to roll and now you have a ridge of dry paint that shows where you left off.  

The key on any large surfaces is to move fast and keep it wet.  

 

-Ace- 

Starting in the middle, regardless of size, is a good idea, and not something I've done in the past. And Yep, I have paid the run price! 

But I'm toying with your idea of two wet edges, where you start, in the middle, and the one you're working back towards you. My concern is the dry edge that you're leaving on the other side of the middle, or the back half of the middle. Am I overthinking/complicating this. I do understand the wet edge concept.

[Tpt life]

Many spray finishers work on a lazy Susan type table. They stand and spin the work piece. For wipe on, starting at one edge, you try to make full passes from one end to the other. The wet edge is long, but only one edge. Over wiping is a common rookie mistake. It can introduce bubbles etc. Take a plywood mock up and give it a try with cheap finish. Don't stress too much about perfection in the finish, just avoid lap marks. You are trying to get a feel for pacing. Never jump onto finished work for your first large format application. 

[AceHoleInOne]

48 minutes ago, Ronn W said:

I watched a video of a professional finisher, a friend of mine, do a table top (not quite as large as your project in less that 5 minutes with a large sponge brush (applicator).  He actually poured (dribbled) ARM-R-Seal on the entire table, spread it around paying no attention to the grain direction and then made his final full length passes, daubing the excess off of the sponge (into a thick folded rag) after each full length stroke. And then walked away.  It worked well.  I would try a practice your dance steps on a large sheet of MDF or plywood first to get a fell for how much you should pour on.  That being said, I am 5'-10" (almost) and a 36" reach would be tough.

Just thinking, If you go the wiping route and wipe it all off so that you do not have to worry about wet edges or exact brush control.  You could wipe it all on and then wipe off starting in the middle.  If you lean over and touch a wet spot it won't matter because you will be wiping it off when you get to that spot.  Just  don't wear your favorite shirt.  Of course it will take more coats this way.

Good luck.

My concern of wiping the finish back ~ this is an Island Top and needs the build of finish for protection. Wiping it back removes all that wonderful finish into a rag never to be seen again.

8 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

Starting in the middle, regardless of size, is a good idea, and not something I've done in the past. And Yep, I have paid the run price! 

But I'm toying with your idea of two wet edges, where you start, in the middle, and the one you're working back towards you. My concern is the dry edge that you're leaving on the other side of the middle, or the back half of the middle. Am I overthinking/complicating this. I do understand the wet edge concept.

That's why ya need to get the lead out and hustle. It should't be that big of deal. If you do see a problem with time and you think that far edge is drying on you. Simply walk around and take 1 pass on that edge you think is drying. 

Another thing to remember, like painting a wall. You don't paint a wall with a brush, you use a roller. On larger surfaces, use a larger pad. 

-Ace- 

[Coop]

Thanks bud, appreciate Ya! Good advice! On a larger surface, would thinning it down help, or agrivate the process? Probably not help as it would dry faster?

[wdwerker]

All this talk of hand finishing a large surface is painful . Bite the bullet and buy an HVLP spray rig.

[estesbubba]

20 minutes ago, wdwerker said:

All this talk of hand finishing a large surface is painful . Bite the bullet and buy an HVLP spray rig.

I'm with Steve that this would be a good time to buy an HVLP. I sprayed this headboard which took 3 minutes per coat. With a table that big I would lay it so the top is vertical so you don't have to reach plus you'll get less dust that way. 

[Pwk5017]

4 minutes ago, wdwerker said:

All this talk of hand finishing a large surface is painful . Bite the bullet and buy an HVLP spray rig.

Yes, that just became incredibly apparent. My lower back friggin hurts after lifting, flipping, and applying finish to this damn thing. I have done 48s and a 52 before, but the extra 18ish inches on this one makes it a major PITA. It is just at the very tip of my reach to get the center of this piece. Typically with waterlox, I just dump the finish on for the first coat. The wood absorbs a large amount of the finish upon first application, so i am heavy handed on the first stroke. Looking at it an hour after the application, i can see it is somewhat uneven. This isnt terribly uncommon on the first coat in my experience, but i am worried this wont be good enough for the 3rd through 5th coats that really need to be even. I will see where we are at tomorrow for coat two. I will probably need to hit it with 220 to help level out what didnt level out over night. 

 

Heres the problem with going HVLP. One, i have no idea how waterlox sprays. I think the VSCT guy prefers to brush it on with a foam brush instead of spraying. Two, I am going to want to buy the 4 stage fuji so i can spray clear finishes and paint. I can, but i dont feel like spending $800+ on a system right now. The alternative is my friend already has a 3 stage fuji that i could probably borrow. Item #3 is i have diddly squat for experience when it comes to spraying. Not sure if i want to give myself a crash course on this commission when im leaving for europe in a week and a half. Far be it from me to not want to spend money on tool, but i keep putting off the HVLP, because of the ease and appearance i achieve with waterlox. I only want an HVLP for spraying conversion varnishes for their cure times. 1 day for waterlox versus 30-60 mins for the conversion varnish. It would certainly cut down on time spent on projects.

 

Has anyone seen something like this for foam brushes? With something like this, I would have no problem getting a good last few even coats across the piece. The open time for waterlox is so long that keeping a wet edge isnt that challenging.

[AceHoleInOne]

1 hour ago, K Cooper said:

Thanks bud, appreciate Ya! Good advice! On a larger surface, would thinning it down help, or agrivate the process? Probably not help as it would dry faster?

Well, thinning will reduce the thickness of the coating, resulting in more coats. More coats is more time. The pain is the first coat or two. Once you get a build going, it flows real nice. 

-------------

As to the go "buy a sprayer" comments. There is a learning curve. Something this large, you will be spending lots of time sanding and repairing and can be frustrating no matter how much you practice. Again, even in spraying, you need to keep a wet edge. A novice sprayer tends to dry spray. So then you get into rubbing out the top and that's a story for another day. 

Hey Im all in for spraying and that's what I would do. But it needs to be said. That's just me being me. Rock on keep us posted how it goes.

 

-Ace-

[Coop]

I've never seen an invitation for disaster be more apparent!

12 minutes ago, Pwk5017 said:

Yes, that just became incredibly apparent. My lower back friggin hurts after lifting, flipping, and applying finish to this damn thing. I have done 48s and a 52 before, but the extra 18ish inches on this one makes it a major PITA. It is just at the very tip of my reach to get the center of this piece. Typically with waterlox, I just dump the finish on for the first coat. The wood absorbs a large amount of the finish upon first application, so i am heavy handed on the first stroke. Looking at it an hour after the application, i can see it is somewhat uneven. This isnt terribly uncommon on the first coat in my experience, but i am worried this wont be good enough for the 3rd through 5th coats that really need to be even. I will see where we are at tomorrow for coat two. I will probably need to hit it with 220 to help level out what didnt level out over night. 

 

Heres the problem with going HVLP. One, i have no idea how waterlox sprays. I think the VSCT guy prefers to brush it on with a foam brush instead of spraying. Two, I am going to want to buy the 4 stage fuji so i can spray clear finishes and paint. I can, but i dont feel like spending $800+ on a system right now. The alternative is my friend already has a 3 stage fuji that i could probably borrow. Item #3 is i have diddly squat for experience when it comes to spraying. Not sure if i want to give myself a crash course on this commission when im leaving for europe in a week and a half. Far be it from me to not want to spend money on tool, but i keep putting off the HVLP, because of the ease and appearance i achieve with waterlox. I only want an HVLP for spraying conversion varnishes for their cure times. 1 day for waterlox versus 30-60 mins for the conversion varnish. It would certainly cut down on time spent on projects.

 

Has anyone seen something like this for foam brushes? With something like this, I would have no problem getting a good last few even coats across the piece. The open time for waterlox is so long that keeping a wet edge isnt that challenging.

 

[AceHoleInOne]

Can ya get up on the thing hands and knees?

If your going to sand. Start with 600 and a light wipe to knock the nibs down and stay off the edges. Don't worry right now about leveling  the finish. You need a build first  to give you something to sand. Get a few coats down. Then block sand with 320 to level the finish. Then apply your finishing coats. 

 

Sounds like your your in a rush with travel and all. Take your time and do it right  stick with it. Things will get better,  make damn sure things are dry between coats  

 

-Ace-

[AceHoleInOne]

How about some duct tape and a paint stick. Tape the brush to it on an angle? 

-Ace-

[Pwk5017]

Ace, PM me about splitting this new company 50:50 ; )

 

we can all take a moment to laugh, but it is made of walnut and not twine, so that should lend some to its credibility. Actually, worked like a treat for the second coat. I got a very even and stroke free application from a piece of scrap, miter gauge set to 25 degrees for the dado and some tape. 

[Ronn W]

Quick, patent it!!!!

[AceHoleInOne]

16 hours ago, Pwk5017 said:

Ace, PM me about splitting this new company 50:50 ; )

 

we can all take a moment to laugh, but it is made of walnut and not twine, so that should lend some to its credibility. Actually, worked like a treat for the second coat. I got a very even and stroke free application from a piece of scrap, miter gauge set to 25 degrees for the dado and some tape. 

Yea baby....that's what I'm talking about. 

 

Sounds like ya got the train back on the tracks!

 

-Ace-