Finishing Mahogany - First time woodworker

[Mike Vee]

Hi,

I just found out about this forum via the woodworking subreddit and I would like to get some advice.

FIrst, I'll have to introduce myself.
My name is Mike and I'm a complete beginner in woodworking. My past experience in woodworking was to create sawhorses for this project.

Now, situation around my question:
I'm building a tabletop for my standing desk. (I purchased the mechanical parts from Autonomous) from Mahogany. 

As of now I have purchased the wood, joined the boards together into 2 sets:

60" x 30" and 60" x 15" as a 2 tier desk

I was able to join the boards together including adding dowels to the seam to help support the table.

After I've joined it, i did some smoothing stuff like adding wood filler in the seams as best as I can and then using a random orbital sander, i sanded down the seams so they're smooth and doing what i can to make sure the rest of the board is as flat as I can (In this part, i sorta kinda failed. I can feel some of the rise/fall of surface, but atleast it's nothing too noticeable).

After all this, I wiped it down and using Old Masters Woodgrain filler mixed in with a Minwax stain (2:1 ratio), I applied it to the entire project and when it dried up the next day, i took a plastic spatula to scrape across the grain (at one point, i messed up and scraped it with the grain and pulled up a little bit of the woodfiller like a moron that I am).

Then I stained the project one more time. (when you see the pictures, please note that I do know that I most probably did a poor job of evenly staining and blending the material. I don't have any experience doing this but I hope to keep on doing this until i know how to do it right)

 

So now is my question:

At this point, should i sand the surfaces down again with a high grit sand paper (either w/ a sander or by hand) and then apply shellac?

In regards to applying shellac, I am trying to figure out if I should apply via brush or HVLP spray. If I apply by HVLP spray, is there anything I should do, apart from thinning the shellac (Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac) to a 2lb cut?

Should I also lightly sand between ever coat (whether I do it via brush or spray)? I have sandpapers from 80 grit to 3000 grit.

I've added some pictures of what I am currently at. (the first 2 pictures are the base with the stain on, waiting to be wiped off and the other 2 are the pieces left to dry)

 

 

Thanks!

[Eric.]

I'd sand all that goo off and put on a few coats of Arm-R-Seal satin.

[Mike Vee]

Is Shellac not recommended in this case? or am I using stuff that is too difficult for me to work with based on my inexperience?

and can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "sand all that goo off"? I don't think there is any residual goop on it, I made sure to wipe it all down until it's smooth. Any spot I missed, i dampened a towel w/ some fresh stain, wipe over the dried gunk till it's gone and wipe it down with a clean paper towel.

 

Also, do you think urethane would provide a better coat than shellac? I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing that will work best for my computer desk.

 

Thanks!

[Eric.]

A desk is something that will endure a moderate amount of abuse, which means it needs a finish that can offer a moderate amount of protection.  A varnish like Arm-R-Seal will be more protective than shellac, and also much easier to apply (well).

By "goo" I mean all the pore filler and stain that you slathered on that poor wood.  Mahogany doesn't need any stain (it already looks like mahogany).  Pore filler is a personal call but I've never seen pore-filled wood that looks better than the natural version.  Both of those processes made your mahogany look less like mahogany...which defeats the whole purpose of using mahogany, IMO.

[Mike Vee]

Ah.. ok. That is a damn shame because I didn't know any better. I was reading online on how to finish mahogany and there was a few suggestions to use the pore filler. It might be a little too late at this point to remove the filler. Atleast I don't know how to remove them. 

Will urethane coating yellow or change color with age? and is there anything special I should do to make sure it it applies on smooth (ie, sanding between coats or applying some sort of conditioner, etc)?

part of the reason I stained it a darker color was because I wanted it to match the rest of the office which is made of acacia wood. the original mahogany color is a little too light (imo). You can see it in the first picture on the far bottom left edge. 

 

 

[wtnhighlander]

Polyurathane finishes, like Arm-R-Seal, do add an amber tone to the wood, but so does shellac. Eric is spot on about the protection required by a desk top. Although shellac is remarkably durable in many circumstances, it does not resist alcohol (it dissolves in it), and suffers from water stains and heat (like coffee while you work?), so isn't the best choice for a desk.

Can you tell us what tools / resources are available to you? It might help us provide more appropriate direction.

[Guest]

Pore filled mahogany is a very specific technique best used for period furniture.  Long story short, the mahogany we get today is a different species than the cuban stuff used in the 19th century.  It was a slower growing and tighter pored species.  In order to approximate the look of old mahogany, period furniture makes will fill the pores.  It can look outstanding, but is a difficult technique and not at all necessary for the type of thing you are building.  The danger of the internet!

Most species sold as mahogany will darken with age.  

[Ronn W]

First - welcome to the forum.  You will find a fair amount of good knowledge with these guys.  I know that I have learned a lot. 

I guess removal of the work you have done so far is up to you and kind of depends on the tools that you have available.

I second or third the use or ARM-R-Seal (ARS)  It's a great wipe on, wipe of finish and is quite durable.

Oh, BTW, I noticed that you said that you used some wood filler on the "Seams" (we call then joints.)  If you needed to do that you should think about investing in a jointer or, if you prefer hand tools, a good hand plane so your joints are tight.

[Mike Vee]

First of all, I want to thank all you guys for your advice and wisdom in all this. I'm just a schmuck who is pretty much trying to do woodworking and learning by reading stuff online and testing it out without any real guidance from other people.

 

47 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

Polyurathane finishes, like Arm-R-Seal, do add an amber tone to the wood, but so does shellac. Eric is spot on about the protection required by a desk top. Although shellac is remarkably durable in many circumstances, it does not resist alcohol (it dissolves in it), and suffers from water stains and heat (like coffee while you work?), so isn't the best choice for a desk.

Can you tell us what tools / resources are available to you? It might help us provide more appropriate direction.

Here are most of the tools I have:

Cutting:

Circular Saw, Hack Saw, Jig Saw

Smoothing:

hand planer, random orbital sander (Variable speed), a variety of sandpaper 80 - 3000 grit

Solvents/liquids:

Minwax stain

Old Masters woodgrain filler

Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac - Clear

Wood filler

Spackle

Mineral oil/paint thinner

Purple power concrete cleaner

Hardware:

2 saw horses and a small portable workbench (Husky X-workhorse)

6 gallon Air compressor with high volume air gun, finish nailer, and a HVLP Spray

a variety of brushes (natural & foam)

Clean up:

shop towels

rags

burlap cloth

 

I don't know if I'm missing anything else, but if I have to go out and grab more stuff, I can do that.

 

44 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Pore filled mahogany is a very specific technique best used for period furniture.  Long story short, the mahogany we get today is a different species than the cuban stuff used in the 19th century.  It was a slower growing and tighter pored species.  In order to approximate the look of old mahogany, period furniture makes will fill the pores.  It can look outstanding, but is a difficult technique and not at all necessary for the type of thing you are building.  The danger of the internet!

Most species sold as mahogany will darken with age.  

Gotcha, So me being a good ol' dumbo, should have done more research on this. I guess I got really excited to do this project that I didn't really take the time to consult with people and just went with stuff I read online. In this case, even if I leave in the woodgrain filler, will it damage the looks that much? I don't know if the pictures help show what it looks like now but maybe there's more I can do to it. The specific mahogany I got was African Mahogany (purchased from Ganahl Lumber). 

In your opinion, you think I should have just not stain the wood at all and let it darken naturally? Does wood still darken after being sealed and such? I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but it's due to my ignorance and I would really love to know more about this so I don't make more mistakes in the future.

 

In regards to Arm-R-Seal, I will hit up home depot or somewhere to find one of those suckers. I took a look on their site and there's 3 types of sheen from what I see. will the sheen affect the texture/feel of the material as well? I'm also reading that it takes 30 days to cure. Is there any way to speed it up at all? I would love to be able to install this table top soon (My desktop has been in the box for 3 months now)

 

Thanks!

 

[Chet]

Mike welcome to the forums.  You are not a dumbo or anything else.  You are just new to a process like we all were at one point and you are going through a learning curve.  Be patient, this group will talk you though this and you will be much happier with the final out come.  All the sheens have the same durability but in all honesty I think you will find the satin most pleasing, it will protect the wood but won't overtake the appearance of the wood itself.  You won't find Arm R Seal at Home Depot.  If you have a Woodcraft store or Rockler store in your vicinity they sell it or you can order it online from either of them.  You can even order it on Amazon.

[JosephThomas]

Welcome Mike. Seems like you are learning a ton, isn't it fun?

50 minutes ago, Mike Vee said:

In your opinion, you think I should have just not stain the wood at all and let it darken naturally? Does wood still darken after being sealed and such? I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but it's due to my ignorance and I would really love to know more about this so I don't make more mistakes in the future.

I think most people here will agree avoiding stain is the ideal route in most scenarios.  Stain complicates the process, and therefore it's difficult to get consistent results. It also has a tendency to hide the wood's natural beauty. Based on your above comments about filling the pores, it's likely the same websites were recommending stain so that you can get furniture that appears old when it's not...there's no need for this if you are just making nice furniture, it will look old and classy all on its own with a little time.  Yes, the wood will slowly move towards a richer color even with finish on it.

You can probably find Minwax wipe-on poly at your local Home Depot. It's a really good option if you can't find Arm-R-Seal locally.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Minwax-1-pt-Wipe-On-Poly-Clear-Satin-40910/100376149

[Mike Vee]

haha I'm trying to be patient. This project has been sitting around for almost a month now (work and stuff got in the way)

but at this point, I want to make sure i do everything as best as I can before I seal it. 

If I want to remove the stain at this point, does that mean I'll have to take out the 80grit sandpaper and sand the entire surface down until i get to the natural color? or will I be able to remove the stain in other ways?

@Joseph Thomas, Yes I'm absolutely learning a lot. I'm sitting here facepalming myself in the process thinking, "why the hell did I not come here first and ask questions before I started this project?!"

 

[JosephThomas]

57 minutes ago, Mike Vee said:

will the sheen affect the texture/feel of the material as well? I'm also reading that it takes 30 days to cure. Is there any way to speed it up at all?

 

I have not yet seen a difference in texture/feel...varnishes have "flatteners" added  to make them less glossy... they are small particles added that helps stop light from reflecting back at your eyes.

The only way around the 30 day thing is to not use oil-based poly, AFAIK. My nose is quite sensitive to the smell, so I have been waiting at least 30 days before dragging anything inside...it needs lots of air flow during that 30 days, you don't want to cover the surface with anything, obviously. Water-based polycrylic will cure faster, but it will have a different look. Feel free to grab some at home depot and try it out on a small scrap piece to see if it looks good to you.

5 minutes ago, Mike Vee said:

If I want to remove the stain at this point, does that mean I'll have to take out the 80grit sandpaper and sand the entire surface down until i get to the natural color? or will I be able to remove the stain in other ways?

80 grit is what I would do. 

[Mike Vee]

I wonder if using Klean Strip will damage the wood. My worry is that I have some areas where I stupidly use wood glue to smooth out the joint. I did mix in the fine dust into the woodglue so it matches the color of the wood, but I don't know how it would look without the stain on it.

[JosephThomas]

I wonder if using Klean Strip will damage the wood. My worry is that I have some areas where I stupidly use wood glue to smooth out the joint. I did mix in the fine dust into the woodglue so it matches the color of the wood, but I don't know how it would look without the stain on it.

Sanding back to bare wood is better than any chemical treatment...I would only use that stuff to remove a thick film finish. You have to remove the wood that has been stained.

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[Mike Vee]

oh my, that would possibly take a ton of time and work. Maybe this will be an opportunity for me to smooth out the surface even more, but I feel like if I tried to remove the stain, it'll take me atleast 2 days of sanding.

What I'm afraid of is that if i start to remove all the stained wood, I would end up creating a surface that's more bumpy......What would you advise how I would approach this potential problem.

[JosephThomas]

oh my, that would possibly take a ton of time and work. Maybe this will be an opportunity for me to smooth out the surface even more, but I feel like if I tried to remove the stain, it'll take me atleast 2 days of sanding.

It shouldn't take days... Nothing wrong with starting at 60 or even 40 grit if 80 won't cut through the stain easily. What kind of sander do you have?

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[Mike Vee]

I have a DeWalt 5" Random Orbital Sander w/ variable speed. I might be able to grab a 60 grit sandpaper to speed up the process.

but once I remove the stain, I just need to prep the surface buy running a very high grit sandpaper and wiping it down then just applying the surface?

[JosephThomas]

8 minutes ago, Mike Vee said:

I have a DeWalt 5" Random Orbital Sander w/ variable speed. I might be able to grab a 60 grit sandpaper to speed up the process.

but once I remove the stain, I just need to prep the surface buy running a very high grit sandpaper and wiping it down then just applying the surface?

Just to be clear, you'll have to work up to higher grits little by little... 80, then 120, then 180.. Maybe up to 220. Something like that. I never jump more than 60 at a time. After that using a shop vac to remove dust is ideal.

Edit:  I also tend to put light pencil marks all over across the surface in between each grit.  This way, you know you've sanded each area enough once the pencil lines have been completely sanded away...this help give you a visual guide and fights the tendency to rush/be-lazy. It's a constant fight

You should be able to run that sander at or near it's highest speed, and just move the sander slowly along the surface to let it do its work...moving it around with your hands too much does nothing but slow the job down.

Marc has a good article with "way too much info" in it here...I'd recommend skipping to the parts titled "Don't Skip Grits" and "Use Dust Collection":

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/sanding-efficiency/

[wtnhighlander]

Mike, I'd like to point out that the shellac you originally planned is a perfectly acceptable finish, and can be quite beautiful. It dries quickly, so no long wait to cure like polyurathane. You would just have accept that it isn't as durable. On the flip side, it is much simpler to repair.

[Eric.]

10 hours ago, Mike Vee said:

The specific mahogany I got was African Mahogany

African mahogany is not actually mahogany.  It's khaya, and calling it mahogany is nothing short of marketing BS.  But a lot of guys are using it in place of genuine mahogany now due to the lower availability and higher cost of genuine.  From a distance it has a similar grain, but IMO that's the only thing they have in common.  Color, texture and workability are worlds apart.

Most guys who use AM in place of genuine use dyes to bring the wood closer to genuine color.  I believe it's Darrell Peart who has a formula that I'm pretty sure can be found publicly.  I find it a bit orange but most people think it's spot on.  This would be a better way to go if you wanted to change the color.  Otherwise, just let the wood be the wood, regardless of its color...that's what it was meant to look like, after all.  Mother Nature will do a better job than you can, every time.

As for the ARS cure time...keep in mind, that's cure time, not dry time.  In my experience, under normal conditions, ARS will be completely dry to the touch overnight, ready to polish within 48 hours, will be completely off-gassed within two weeks (given ample breathing ability), and cured well within 30 days.  I think they're being conservative with that estimate to cover their own asses.

While yes, shellac will dry and cure much, much faster than any oil-based finish, it's a sticky freakin' nightmare to use, and unless you're gonna spray it or learn French polish, I can't recommend it.  In my shop, shellac is only useful as a sealer, and even as that I hardly ever use it.  ARS is easy to use, durable, and it looks great when done correctly.  You can lay down a dozen or more coats of shellac in one day, but IMO that's where the advantages end.  Welcome to the 21st Century.

As for pore filling...as Mike said, there's a traditional application that goes way back.  I don't know much about period furniture but I find pore filling to be ridiculous in every case I've ever seen short of a gloss black Steinway piano.  Wood grows with grain.  It has grain.  Let the damn wood show its grain.  That's what wood looks like!  LOL  Seriously, if you want closed-pored wood...use maple.

In other words...pore filler...don't use it.  IMO.

Always gotta add that "IMO" or people get all butt hurt.  Opinions are overrated, in my opinion.

[Mike Vee]

Haha this is definitely going to set back my completion time by atleast a month with all the things I'm learning.

So in regards to removing the stain, I'm still not sure if I will end up doing it but I now feel like it's probably a good idea.

with polyurethane coats, how much time do I need to wait if I coat it, then drilled in a bunch of screws into it to create the pillars (it's a combination of black iron flanges and 8" pipe nipples [4 pillars to be exact]) on the top tier then place it on the bottom tier to pre drill the holes for it. how long should I wait for the coat to be able to support around 30lb of weight on it.

or should I pre drill the necessary holes first? would I be able to use the desk within say, 2 weeks?

I've already weigh the wood and the top is 28lbs and the bottom is 68lbs.

I am now starting to understand that shellac seems to be best for when you use it on furniture that doesn't get a lot of constant harsh use. that much will probably have me use it in other places in the future.

and in regards to African Mahogany... Humdiggity dammit. I had no idea I wasn't using real. Mahogany. in that case I still want to make the wood closer to darkness as the rest of the furniture in my office so that probably means I might keep the stain but I'll probably work on sanding down the table anyways to remove the woodgrain filler.

I'm loving that I'm learning so much more but bummed that I made a lot of mistakes along the eay that could have been avoided if I came here sooner. looks like my weekends will be packed

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[Guest]

Are you ok with how it looks? 

I agree with Eric, if I were starting from scratch I wouldn't use the pore filler and stain.  But if you are ok with the way it looks, I see no reason to flog yourself.  Just wipe on some poly and call it done.

 

 

 

[Eric.]

5 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Are you ok with how it looks? 

I agree with Eric, if I were starting from scratch I wouldn't use the pore filler and stain.  But if you are ok with the way it looks, I see no reason to flog yourself.  Just wipe on some poly and call it done.

 

 

Agreed ^^^.

It's your first project.  Finish it up and move on.  They're all learning experiences.

[Mike Vee]

I kind of like the current color because I think it is much closer to the rest of the stuff in the office (I thought the wood looked a little too light brown/orange without the stain. )

This leads to another question (probably the biggest one for me), how do i apply the poly on such a large surface and should I be applying it to the entire piece (including sides and bottom)? if so, do i go ahead an wipe on all but 1 side and let it dry, then apply it on the last remaining side and finally put the whole thing together?

 

I read that it takes about 7-10 days for coat to be ok with "light use" and I know I need to screw in a bunch of stuff onto it (the standing desk legs and the iron flanges for the 2nd tier. After I wipe it on, do I wait a week then start the drilling of the holes? or do i drill the holes in right now, then apply the poly and let it dry for a week or 2?

 

other than that, to prep the material for poly, i just need to wipe it down clean and apply it right? or should i do anything else? (do i need to sand it down with some high grit sandpaper to smooth it out or just leave it as is and just wipe it clean?