Why are trees harvested today not as "good" as those from the past?

[Dolmetscher007]

I have become very interested in Dendrology. Most of the books on Amazon.com that deal with the study of trees are all $65+ so I'm having to learn mostly from the internet and just watching YouTube. I am fascinated by phrases like... Heart pine, old growth, and slow growth.  I don't know enough about trees to really know what everyone means, but I do know a lot about human nature and marketing. I was the marketing coordinator for a health food grocery store chain right when worlds like "organic, no-GMO, Whole Foods, and gluten free" were becoming household topics. I know how quickly a very good and well intentioned idea can turn into a feeding frenzy of opportunistic people who will bend, squeeze, and stretch facts and the truth right up to and beyond the limits of actual sense. And unless you have a strong background in that industry, you have no real way of knowing what's legit, and what is just something a sales team put together. 

I do know that, when it comes to trees, the one immutable factor is time. A 300 year old Black oak tree can grow as wide as 40-50" and then some, and that there is no way to really speed that up.  But what's the deal with all this new talk of "Heart Pine" and how the pine of today is very soft, while original "slow growth" pine the forefather's found in the US... was tight grained and "as hard as oak." What's up with that? Obviously, old trees = wider trees. A tree grows for 100 years, it gets thicker, where as a tree that is cut down after only 20 years... is much thinner. But what is up with "slow growth?" How can you slow down the growth of a pine tree to make it harder?

What do you guys think? 

[Tpt life]

A lot of this has to do with the way forests grow in competition. Thick young growth means straight boles as trees compete for sunlight. As trees crowd each other, water is the next resource to limit growth. As weaker trees die, fire becomes a limiter. Add a crop of new growth around a wider spacing of fire proof trees. This is very different from tree farm growth. 

[Chet]

Old-growth wood is lumber that was grown naturally in virgin, so to speak, forests. There are some areas of some forests that are still untouched where trees haven’t been harvested for use because they are usually protected.  These trees grew slowly due to limited light and competition from the other trees. Because of this slow growth rate the growth rings on the trees were packed very tightly together which makes them stronger and sometimes more resistant to rot and disease.

[Tom King]

"Heart Pine" is the heart wood of the Long Leaf Pine tree.  This part of the country was full of virgin growth of such trees when our country was started.  There are few of those stands left any more.  If you find trees as large as those were of the same Long Leaf Pine, the wood will be as good.  It's not necessarily about the rate of growth.  It takes a LONG time any kind of way for the heart to get large enough to cut 18" wide planks out of.

Most of the Pine trees today, in the same geographic region as those virgin pines, are a completely different type of Pine called Loblolly.  There are very few stands of it left any more that get as large as those Long Leafs were that what we call "Heart Pine" came out of.  The land that either grows in now is not much different than it was hundreds of years ago.  The only thing that speeds up the process is hybridization of the trees that are planted.

Today, most people who raise Pine trees for income manage it to get the most tonnage per acre with quality of log not considered.  My family has raised trees for one of our incomes for generations, and Brunswick County, Virginia, where I grew up, is the largest producer of timber in Virginia even now.  

We had one of the largest stands of old trees around until Hurricane Fran decimated that forest, and we had no choice but to clear cut it, or lose it.  It's now a stand of Loblolly that we are getting ready to have thinned this Spring.  Most people thin to produce the most tonnage per acre of harvestable timber.  We still do it the old way, and leave the stand crowded until all the limbs have fallen off the butt log of at least 24 feet.  As the crown of the trees grows up, only the strong survive in the thick stand, and as the crown gets higher, the limbs fall off the lower parts.

If you ever wondered why it seems like most Pine lumber has a lot of knots in it, it's because the stand was thinned young, and all the trees have limbs down low.

Pine lumber is entirely different now than it was as recently as the early 1990's because of the way it's processed.  When I started building houses in 1974, and up through 1991, when the last of the old mills around here closed, you could buy a Yellow Pine (mostly Loblolly) 2x4 and not only was it straight, but it would stay straight.

The reason the lumber was stable was because it was air dried for at least a year on stickers, and then kiln dried slowly in a kiln fired by sawdust, and finally run through straight line saws, and then dressed (planed) to final dimensions.

There used to be one of those such mills every 20 or 30 miles around here.  No longer.  The big box, chain building suppliers put them out of business with cheaper production methods.  These days, the logs are sawn one day, they go through a kiln that night, the next day they are cut to final dimensions, bundled up, and strapped.  You need to stand back when you cut one of these straps because there is so much stress in the wood, that the bundle will almost explode when the straps are cut. If you pick straight ones today, it might have bends in two different directions next week.

 

[davewyo]

Not to your point but if you're interested in some of the fundamentals check out Google Books for "classic" works on dendrology. Filter your search for "free google e-books" and use key words like forestry, cabinet making, furniture making, and such.

[Mark J]

@Tom King,  great discussion.  I just returned from a very pleasurable driving trip through parts of NC (I did wave, but I'm not sure you saw me).  I used some of my time while not behind the wheel to do a little google research on Southern Yellow Pine, and learned much the same.   It's not that the trees grow differently, it is that we have changed what trees are growing, and how long we let them grow.  

OP, Here is one web page I found particularly informative on different species of "pine"

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/pine-wood-an-overall-guide/

[wdwerker]

Most of the reclaimed "heart pine " available around here these days comes from industrial buildings up north that had brick exterior walls and a post and beam interior frame. Floor joists were spaced up to 6' apart and the floor decking was 3" or 4" thick double or triple tongue and groove, so the floor deck was structural. The guy I buy from gets rail cars full of the wood when a 3 or 4 story building is demolished. They de-nail it and check twice with a huge metal detector. Then it gets resawed primarily into flooring and graded depending on the holes and stains from metal fasteners. I have counted 30-40 growth rings per inch. The higher grades can go for $25 a board foot !

[RichardA]

A lot of the long leaf pine forests have been converted into lololly pine farms and in less than ten years, you're writing your grocery lists on the paper made from those trees.

[Dolmetscher007]

2 hours ago, Tom King said:

"Heart Pine" is the heart wood of the Long Leaf Pine tree.  This part of the country was full of virgin growth of such trees when our country was started.  There are few of those stands left any more.  If you find trees as large as those were of the same Long Leaf Pine, the wood will be as good.  It's not necessarily...

 

@Tom King This is an amazingly helpful and well-written response. Thank you very much for taking the time to write it. I grew up in South Georgia, where I'm sure I had at least 15 pine trees in my front and back yard, and we only had 1/2 an acre. I now live in Charleston, SC where there are rows and rows of historic homes. Naturally the restoration and historic preservation of these homes is an oft discussed thing, and that is partly where I have seen so much mention of words like Heart Pine. 

I think that my frustration, if you can call it that, comes from the fact that, since I did not grow up with a father or any uncles that knew anything about woodworking, I've had to learn everything I know from books, YouTube videos, and good old trial and error. In books and YouTube videos, however, everyone is using 8/4 walnut, quarter sawn white oak, sapele, Zebra wood, or gluing up spalted maple panels. I fell in love with Gustav Stickley and Craftsman/Mission/Arts-and-Crafts style furniture. I started piecing together my tools one-by-one over a three year period so that I could build myself a Mission Spindle Bed. Then one I had a table saw (actually a loaner from a friend), a chop saw, drill press, sanders, and all the gear... I started looking for the quarter sawn white oak. No one sold it. I finally did find a place that sold it, and the 100 or so board ft. that I'd need to make the bed ended up coming to $1,300 or so. When I looked at Cherry, and some other hardwoods it was slightly cheaper, but not much. 

I'd have to save for a year to set aside that kind of money. I want to get started making something. So, I looked at Poplar. It is much cheaper than the other hard woods, but it really just isn't very pretty at all. It kind of looks like Zombie wood to me; like the life has been drained out of it. I've seen some "Select Pine" at Home Depot, and it is pretty, but I don't want to build a chair out of 3/4" S4S pine that might break when I sit my big ass down in it. (I'm 6'5" tall, about 350 lbs.) I just built a "farmhouse table" for a friend. I did the whole vinegar & steel wool + beating it up + scratching it up + wire brush and wire wheel... and lo and behold, it does in fact look like old wood, just like every other cliche on Pinterest. But it was an epic pain in the ass. The boards were the straightest 2 x 10's at Home Depot. But by the time I made a table top out of them, they were all as twisted as a piece of liquorish. 

I am absolutely fine with using 2 x 4s from Home Depot to build some stuff. But in all the YouTube videos and books that I have watched over the years, not to mention the 20 years of New Yankee Workshop, none of them use dimensional lumber. There must be some way to learn to use 2x4 type wood. Anyone have any tip? And PLEASE do not say, "Yeah! Don't use Dimensions Lumber!!!"

[wtnhighlander]

Here are a couple of tips.

Don't buy 2x4s, buy 2x10 or 2x12, as long and clear as you can find. Look for a non-BORG building supply house, they usually have better quality. Bring the boards home, cut out any pith, and sticker them for a month or two. Whatever stays straight that long is likely to maje decent material to build from. It won't be old-growth, and the changing density of the early - late growth rings will drive you nuts when you plane it, but it can make some beautiful furniture. You just have to learn to use the properties of the material to your advantage.

[Dolmetscher007]

What is BORG?

[Chet]

Big Orange Retail Giant (Home Depot).  In other words try to go to a quality lumber yard not a big box store.

[wtnhighlander]

What is BORG?

Big Orang Retail Giant, genericly used to refer to any large chain retailer of buildung materials.

(yes, I mis-spelled 'building', but it seems oddly appropriate).

Find a lumber yard that doesn't have stores in 17 states, and you should be OK.

[Dolmetscher007]

The problem with lumber yards in Charleston SC... 

1. They are only open M-F
2. They all close at 5:00
3. If you are not a huge contractor buying truck loads of wood, they really have no use for you.
4. When I have been in the past, everyone there treated me like I wasn't supposed to be there. 

But I get your point, and I thank you for your advice. I will try again with the lumber yard(s)

[davewyo]

7 minutes ago, Dolmetscher007 said:

The problem with lumber yards in Charleston SC... 

1. They are only open M-F
2. They all close at 5:00
3. If you are not a huge contractor buying truck loads of wood, they really have no use for you.
4. When I have been in the past, everyone there treated me like I wasn't supposed to be there. 

Yes.

It's way off topic but I know what you're talking about. I have the same problem with my local lumber yard. I'm so minuscule that when I ask someone for help buying lumber I get the feeling I'm just in the way.

The way I've gotten over that is to stand back a while and see how the contractors operate. I also do most of the work myself. I sort through the piles by myself, put them back as neat or better than I found them, get the 20 BF I'm looking for lined up, and go to the front desk with all the info they need to get me out of the way in a matter of moments. I seldom want them to make any cuts, but if I do I carry the boards over to the radial arm saw and line them up before anyone even arrives.

It still was an awkward environment to work in for a while but given some time they got used to me. They now know that I'm a serious hobbyist who knows a little something and isn't trying to give them a hard time. They know that I buy a small but steady amount of lumber which isn't going to make them wealthy, but I'm a consistent source of income that takes almost no effort on their part.

Most of the normal guys and even a few of the surly guys know my name now, and they know that I'm going to buy some lumber every now and then. The guys at the register routinely give me the usual contractors discount if I buy 50 or 100 BF.

[Chet]

12 minutes ago, Dolmetscher007 said:

When I have been in the past, everyone there treated me like I wasn't supposed to be there. 

I know that it can really feel this way.  But most times it is just a matter of them finding out that you are serious about purchasing lumber.  Asking questions, restacking lumber properly when you are done and things like this go a long ways to letting them know you are a serious customer.  A lot of times they seem of putting because they are busy with contractors and unless they see you are not just a looky loo trying to find something for nothing, they have other things to do.  I thought my place was like this but now I am on a first name basis and they've even put me on their contractor data base for pricing.  It didn't happen over night its a process.

[Coop]

5 minutes ago, Chet K said:

I know that it can really feel this way.  But most times it is just a matter of them finding out that you are serious about purchasing lumber.  Asking questions, restacking lumber properly when you are done and things like this go a long ways to letting them know you are a serious customer.  A lot of times they seem of putting because they are busy with contractors and unless they see you are not just a looky loo trying to find something for nothing, they have other things to do.  I thought my place was like this but now I am on a first name basis and they've even put me on their contractor data base for pricing.  It didn't happen over night its a process.

It's a shame that it's that way and I have the same delima. I have a fire and safety company with customers that range from very large to very small and we treat each like they are the most important customer we have. It seems that @Eric.retreat/side job is definately the exception in wood suppliers. 

[davewyo]

4 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

It seems that @Eric.retreat/side job is definately the exception in wood suppliers. 

Have you ever been to Eric.'s lumber yard Coop? I imagine it's a lot like this.

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/a-lumbering-feeling/

[Coop]

I have not. I've seen that before and it's a hoot, but true! Thanks. Can you imagine a good lookIng lady telling  you that you don't have enough board ft.?   

[davewyo]

1 hour ago, K Cooper said:

Can you imagine a good lookIng lady telling  you that you don't have enough board ft.?   

Um...Yes.

Unfortunately I can imagine anything that my silly mind can think up.

[Marmotjr]

8 hours ago, Chet K said:

Big Orange Retail Giant (Home Depot).  In other words try to go to a quality lumber yard not a big box store.

Dangit... I started googling before continuing to read the thread, and was going to ask myself. 

[Eric.]

9 hours ago, K Cooper said:

It's a shame that it's that way and I have the same delima. I have a fire and safety company with customers that range from very large to very small and we treat each like they are the most important customer we have. It seems that @Eric.retreat/side job is definately the exception in wood suppliers. 

 

9 hours ago, davewyo said:

Have you ever been to Eric.'s lumber yard Coop? I imagine it's a lot like this.

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/a-lumbering-feeling/

 

I can assure you, it's not.  I get tired of stupid questions and rustic DIY idiots for sure...but they'd never know it.  They're customers and they get treated as such.  I have a reputation around here as being short on patience when it comes to mediocrity...but I'm not trying to sell anything to any of you.

We've siphoned off a huge percentage of the local competition because they have the very reputation y'all speak of...if you're not buying a thousand board feet, you're not worth their time.  The business I work for is aimed directly at the small-time hobbyist furnituremaker and they get treated well.  Especially the ones who don't ask where the reclaimed lumber is.   The people who I spend the most time with are those who care the most, not who buy the most.

To answer the OP's question...keep looking for a decent hardwood dealer.  If you have to take a road trip and drive to another state to buy hardwood, do it.  Your project is gonna suck if you use big box store garbage.  It just is.  Sorry.  No way around it.  You're not gonna find old growth or heart pine at BORG...and even if you did find it somewhere else, it's gonna cost just as much as a quality hardwood.

We sell S2S 4/4 cherry for $2.90/bf.  That's not to say you have the same deal available in your area, obviously...but deals are out there.  You'd be better off buying old Cletus wood from some yokel's barn than you'd be with construction lumber.  You're gonna put dozens - nay - hundreds of hours into building this furniture...why the hell would you use crap material?  Makes no sense.  Save the money, buy decent wood.  If it takes a year, so be it.  Otherwise it's a waste of your time and ours.

[Guest]

As a side note, one of my first project was a table using old growth 2x4s I bought from a reclaimed building supply place.  They were almost all vertical grain.   They were probably from 1900-1920, which is when most of Chicago was built.  It seems it was much more common to quartersaw construction lumber back then.

I buy from a few different places - all of them are happy to deal with small purchases.  The largest yard I deal with has a million board feet in inventory but will happily sell you 50bd ft, but you can't pick your boards.  That being said, everything I have bought from them is primo - flat, straight and properly graded.  The 80% cherry is absolutely 80%+ heart so there is really no reason to spend all day picking through a stack.  

A lot of the places aimed at hobbyists do let you pick your boards, but they often have a lot of trash in the rack (at least the place in my area does).

I buy directly from two different sawyer/kiln operators.  One deals mostly in boards, mostly 4/4 to 8/4, he air dries everything for 3-months, depending on the season, before it goes in the kiln.  The other deals mostly in thicker slabs, they air dry for a year before it goes in the kiln.  

I guess I am spoiled because I live in a major market.  Buying quality lumber seems to be a common problem for people, but I have not had any problems.  But you have to be willing to 1) drive 2) spend and 3) act like you know what you are doing.  

[davewyo]

7 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I can assure you, it's not.

I hope you know I was just joking. I didn't mean to impugn your reputation. I've never been to "your" lumber yard either. It's something like 1500 miles away. I'm sorry if I insulted you. It was not intended.

[Eric.]

3 minutes ago, davewyo said:

I hope you know I was just joking. I didn't mean to impugn your reputation. I've never been to "your" lumber yard either. It's something like 1500 miles away. I'm sorry if I insulted you. It was not intended.

Not at all, Dave...just wanted to make sure people didn't actually think that.  We have a great reputation among hobbyists in the area.