Jet Vortex Cone

[GNiessen]

I have seen the new ad for Jet's new Vortex Cone. And it seems like it should be possible to implement that on most existing canister filters. But I can't see any option just to buy the vortex portion for an existing system. And I can't see enough detail to try building my own. Has anyone gotten one yet? Or seen one up close?

[mlingenfelter]

I saw this announcement, not too long ago. I'm not sure if I really get it. I have Jet dust collector, similar to the one they show. I've never had an issue with chips clogging up my filter. I only seem to collect fine dust in my filter. The built-in paddle knocks the dust out. Do you have an issue with larger chips getting your filter?

Mike

[SawSucker]

Gordon, I would like to see the JET cone in the bag ring upclose also so I could understand it better also. But there is an alternitive, here is a link to the Phil Thien website where you can learn how to build and install one of his baffles. People have been putting his baffle in DC's for awhile now already. It was kind of a shock to see that JET is now attempting it in their fashion, whatever that may be. Phil Thien Baffle My thoughts use to be like Mikes, I didn't totally how it works where dust is being pushed into a container rather then being pulled in like most separators, so I was sceptical and wasn't sure there was a need for it, but since people have been doing it in Phil's website with reported success, and now JET is doing it, there must be something to it. But I think that if your going to do any separating, it's makes more sense to me to get rid of the dust before it even gets to the impeller and filter, then put a baffle in the bag ring if you feel that you need even more separation for the filter.

[alindsey]

I have seen the new ad for Jet's new Vortex Cone. And it seems like it should be possible to implement that on most existing canister filters. But I can't see any option just to buy the vortex portion for an existing system. And I can't see enough detail to try building my own. Has anyone gotten one yet? Or seen one up close?

There is, as of yet, no stand-alone version of the Vortex Cone for retrofit to existing Jet canisters. We've been, at least at our store, badgering our Walter-Meier rep about this because in the past month we've sold quite a few DC-1100 canister models and people are a bit PO'd that if they had waited a month they could have gotten the newer version with the cone for the same price. Seems to me that, as many DC-1100 and 1200 owners that there are, that it would be worth their while to offer the cone as a stand-alone item, assuming it will fit the existing canisters.

[Dyami Plotke]

There is, as of yet, no stand-alone version of the Vortex Cone for retrofit to existing Jet canisters. We've been, at least at our store, badgering our Walter-Meier rep about this because in the past month we've sold quite a few DC-1100 canister models and people are a bit PO'd that if they had waited a month they could have gotten the newer version with the cone for the same price. Seems to me that, as many DC-1100 and 1200 owners that there are, that it would be worth their while to offer the cone as a stand-alone item, assuming it will fit the existing canisters.

Allen,

Have you been able to see the new Vortex model in person? Has the store demoed it yet? I'm curious to know if it's all that Jet says it is.

[alindsey]

Allen,

Have you been able to see the new Vortex model in person? Has the store demoed it yet? I'm curious to know if it's all that Jet says it is.

I haven't as of yet. Also, I mistakenly said before that the newer models with the Vortex cone were the same price. They're a bit more expensive, maybe $30-$40 more, however I don't think they're going to make it an option to get a DC with or without the Vortex. All of our system/inventory has the Jet and Powermatic dust collectors with the cone as replacing the other models and doesn't appear to give us the option to order one without the cone. My guess is that once Walter-Meier is out of the older models without the cone that they'll be discontinued, but I don't have any solid word on that as of yet.

[GNiessen]

I have a Grizzly Canister. When the bag is even 3/4 full then saw dust gets blown up into the top and id does reduce the efficiency quite a bit. I can empty the bag more often as I usually do, but it is time consuming and tedious. So anything that can reduce the effort is appreciated. I have considered some cyclonic pre-stage filters. I do see some merit in Phil's approach. It would be helpful if he had more results posted.

I am thinking that angled louvers would be better in that chips would be deflected down into the bag, yet air pressure would equalize across them better. Cutting a cone out of sheet steel is fairly easy, but the louvers would be a pain. A laser or flowjet would do a neat job, but not having access to either means using hand shears or a jigsaw. And shears would probably warp the metal. And a wood version seems like it would be thicker and have more resistance to airflow.

If jet comes out with a refit for their models, it should be fairly easy to adjust to fit my Grizzly. Though I am guessing they will charge more then the $30-40 price difference.

[Beechwood Chip]

I have a Grizzly Canister. When the bag is even 3/4 full then saw dust gets blown up into the top and id does reduce the efficiency quite a bit. .....

I am thinking that angled louvers would be better in that chips would be deflected down into the bag ...

My vague memory of the Thien story is that he got tired of saw dust getting blown up into his filter, and anything which directed air down into the bag made it worse. If air goes down into the bag, it has to come back up, and since the bag is full of dust, it will come back up carrying dust.

The Thien separator works because the main airflow doesn't goes down into the bag. The dust falls down into the bag due to gravity after their bounce into the sides of the cyclone and drop out of suspension. So, I'd be reluctant to add anything which directs air flow down into the bag.

If only Paul Thien and Bill Pentz would team up - Imagine a Thien site with the kind of hard number that Pentz provides!

[mlingenfelter]

I went and watch all of the videos Jet has the Vortex, and tried to reproduce their results this weekend. I was doing a fair amount of milling this weekend. I have a bag half full of chips. After I was done one day I took the filter off, and I only had fine dust in the filter (and very little of that). I then turned my dust collector on, and let run for 20 minutes. Same results, the filter was free of chips. Don't get me wrong, I love my Jet dust collector, I'm just not seeing the problem they say they have solved.

Mike

[SawSucker]

I have a 1 1/2 hp Delta 50-760 Dust Collector that I added an onboard side inlet separator too. I luv the setup, it works great, and I wouldn’t ever consider going back to a generic style DC such as the JET. Here is a link address to the Dust Collector that I have. The Ultimate Delta 50-760

[ary]

I made one and it works well.

For details please go to http://ary.com/WoodWorking/Shop/Jet/index.html.

I describe how I learned about it, what Jet said when I wanted to by one, the then how I built it.

ary

[Jfitz]

I have a 1 1/2 hp Delta 50-760 Dust Collector that I added an onboard side inlet separator too. I luv the setup, it works great, and I wouldn’t ever consider going back to a generic style DC such as the JET. Here is a link address to the Dust Collector that I have. The Ultimate Delta 50-760

Says I need to log in......

[jlawyer]

Use an authentic (read: inexpensive) wok... there was a DIY discussion of the same thing on popular woodworking's blog.

Edit: Found it! http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/shop-made-vortex-dust-collector-woks-on

[Eric.]

I'm considering adding one of these to my canister DC, then sending the fine dust right outside through the wall.

Does anyone have experience with this unit? My main problem is that it has a 5" inlet, and 5" pipe is hard to find and expensive, so I'd either have to go broke over it or go down to 4" on the whole system.

[rmac]

No experience here with the Dust Deputy.

But, there are some problems and safety issues with exhausting your DC system directly outside. If you're not already familiar with them, check this thread starting at about post #14.

-- Russ

[Eric.]

No experience here with the Dust Deputy.

But, there are some problems and safety issues with exhausting your DC system directly outside. If you're not already familiar with them, check this thread starting at about post #14.

-- Russ

Yeah Russ, I'm in a drafty garage with no appliances, so I'm not all that concerned with those issues. Thanks though.

[rmac]

Yeah Russ, I'm in a drafty garage with no appliances, so I'm not all that concerned with those issues. Thanks though.

Good deal! I never would have thought of such things myself if somebody hadn't piped up on one of these forums. (Thanks, Vic!)

-- Russ

[jlawyer]

I added a separator with a $15 vortex kit from rockler and a fiber barrel... awesome.

[hec487]

I have the DC1200 and was bummed when I could not get a retrofit

I had a friend fabricate a Vortex like cone at his sheet metal shop. To get the dimensions I simply went to the local Woodcraft and took a good look at the new system. The finished cone went in pretty easily. I used pop rivets and other standard hardware to mount it. I also spent some time cleaning the filter with compressed air before installation. Since then, I have run the stock to make 10 cabinet doors through the jointer, planer, drum sander table saw and router table.

Lessons Learned?

• I realized that my collector worked significantly better when i used the compressed air to blow the filter clean after each use, try this regardless.
  
• If you can't find a sheet metal shop to make a cone (or rather not make it yourself ), the upside down wok seems like a good option. http://www.popularwo...llector-woks-on
  
• I believe adding a separator to my system would make more of a difference than the cone has made based on what I have seen so far.
  

Does it work?

Not sure yet, I did notice fine dust above the cone but not wood chips. I would say that there seemed to be less dust than I have seen in the past.The results were the same when the bag reached about 2/3 full. I will try to figure out a way to quantify the difference and report back.

I may also run some material through with and without the cone and compare the difference. I tried to be brief and didn't give many details of the process, but i did pretty much what the others on this and the PopWW site did to design and install the cone.

[konkers]

• I realized that my collector worked significantly better when i used the compressed air to blow the filter clean after each use, try this regardless.
  

I've heard that many air filters need some dust lodged in them to operate efficiently. Does anyone know a reliable source to confirm this? Blowing off the filter may be allowing more of the finest particles to make it back into the air.

[Beechwood Chip]

I can't find a link, but what I remember seems like common sense. The less clogged a filter is, the more easily air passes through it, and the more fine dust gets through. The extreme would be no filter at all. The more clogged a filter gets, the more dust it blocks, but the harder it is to get air through it. If it were completely clogged, no air (or dust) would get through.

So, if you blow out your filters, you'll see better airflow, and more dust collected at the tool, but more (invisible) dust will be getting through the filter.

What I remember reading is that "hepa" filters aren't really hepa until they get some dust in them to block the bigger holes. After a couple of hours, they start blocking more of the the finer particles. If you clean them, then you have to start the process over.

I'm not sure that there's an "efficiency" rating for filters. There's a set of measurements of what percent of particles of each size get caught. Note that some particles get through at every size - it's not like a change sorter that lets all dimes through while catching all quarters. Along with those measurements is a measure of how much pressure it takes to move so many cu ft / min through the filter. "Clogging" the filter with dust increases the capture rate, and increases the pressure needed.

At least, that's my understanding.

[hec487]

Konkers,

Thanks for asking this question,

Yeah, I've heard that the fine dust is important for the bag filters to capture the smaller particles. I can't say if its true for the pleated filter though. Just to clear up what I meant by "significantly better" is that the collector cleared more chips and had a noticeable cfm flow increase after cleaning out the filter.

I went to Bill Pentz' site and poked around for the answer. Although he didn't say anything about fine dust improving the efficiency of a pleated filter it looks like cleaning with compressed air can cause potential physical damage. In the link below (section H.1&2) he recommends using a vacuum or compressed air to clean a filter but that 60 psi is the max pressure to be used. It looks like increased air flow is needed to capture the fine dust at the source but this increased flow requires that you keep the pleats from getting plugged or damaged by chips. I added the link for anyone who would like to check it out Bill's site.

Also,

There is recommendation to use standard window screen to protect the pleated filter from chip; that might be worth trying.

Every time I visit this site I feel like getting a chest X-ray.

BillPentz.com :: Dust Collection Research :: Dust Collector Cartridge Conversion

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/DCConversion.cfm