Jerry S Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Wondering if the communiuty could shed some light on a finishing "issue" I am experiencing. I have built a "train set" for my 2 year old son. (It's the Puzzle Train from "Making Toys That Teach", love that book…) Anyway, I was thinking of using Danish Oil for the finish. It the past when I have tried Danish Oil it would only let me do like 1 coat…the second coat would feel like it would never dry, or really soak in much…it ends up a little blochy. We are talking days and it is still weird. Any ideas as to what I may be doing wrong? My usual “go to” is GF Arm-r-Seal. And with that stuff I usually put 3 -6 coats. Never had any issues. I suppose I could use it on the train, but I was thinking that I’d rather not deal with urethanes on a toy. (The water based GF finsh is another option I guess..) What am I saying, that’s all Watco Danish Oil is, right? A wiping varnish with some urethane in it? Should I swich to walnut oil? Never used that stuff…oh good grief. Too many choices. I understand that a Danish Oil finish should not need as many coats, but I think the instructions say to apply 2 coats. That second coat just throws me. I am doing what the instructions say, at least I feel I am. Thanks, Jerry S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I think Watco is a oil varnish blend If its a linseed oil without tung its going to take a very long time to dry maybe even weeks. Try seal a cell its pretty easy and seems to dry at a pretty good pace. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnell Hagen Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Strange, Watco should be dry well before that. Did you shake the container first? Are you applying a thin film? The surface should be shiny, not dripping. The wood may be part of it, oily exotics will prevent good drying. Porous woods are a little problematic as well, red oak needs to be wiped down regularly during the drying process, as the oil comes back out of the pores and causes shiny spots. I've had issues with the sun as well, if the object is in a window the part in the sun will have more of the bleed out than that in the shade. If you are looking to build a film it will take more than just two coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 All finishes are non-toxic, once cured. I'd use your go-to finish and sleep like a baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboMonk Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 All finishes are non-toxic, once cured. I say NO WAY to this frequent Internet Echo. I'm a former Clinical Chemist and Toxicologist with consulting experience in the paints and coatings industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 I dont have a clue about the safety of finishes. I guess there may be a difference between non toxic vs food safe. I guess better safe than sorry. Maybe try tried and true, its fda food safe IIRC. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry S Posted December 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Strange, Watco should be dry well before that. Did you shake the container first? Are you applying a thin film? The surface should be shiny, not dripping. The wood may be part of it, oily exotics will prevent good drying. Porous woods are a little problematic as well, red oak needs to be wiped down regularly during the drying process, as the oil comes back out of the pores and causes shiny spots. I've had issues with the sun as well, if the object is in a window the part in the sun will have more of the bleed out than that in the shade. If you are looking to build a film it will take more than just two coats. Yep, shaken. Thin film? yes. And wiping excess...if any. No exotics. I believe the project was maple and walnut. (But if I do use it, there is some pauduk, yellow, and purpleheart on the train.) No sun. It was sitting in the middle of my basement workshop. Not much sunlight gets in there. I don't feel the need for building a film on it. Maybe I'll just try the salad bowl finish. I know it's just thinned poly, but it is so easy to apply. A couple coats should do it. And if I get it applied this week, it will have a couple more weeks to off-gas and start to cure. Not a full 30 days, but better than "twas the night before Christmas" like a few years ago. (I was up at 2 AM putting the last coat of shellac on a play kitchen for my daughter with my wife Christmas eve. A story for another day.) Jerry S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 I say NO WAY to this frequent Internet Echo. Not echoing anything... Show me something that states toxic properties of the CURED DRY FILM of common finishes. I fully agree that many modern finishes are toxic in a liquid or uncured state. I'm willing to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Keep in mind that Danish oil is really an oil/varnish blend. The extra oil in the mix means you have to treat it differently than something like Seal-a-Cell or Arm-R-Seal. You have to wipe off all the excess and lower temps can extend the dry time. Also, subsequent coats may have a problem curing depending on the wood and the application method. Remember that finishes that contain actual oil really need to absorb in order for them to cure properly. If the wood becomes fairly well "sealed" after the first coat, subsequent coats will indeed have a problem drying. You don't experience this with finishes like Arm-R-Seal and salad bowl finish simply because these are varnishes and they contain no oil. Yes they are oil-based, but no BLO or Tung Oil is added after processing. And that's the real difference-maker. And if you're looking for a fast drying finish that is pretty much universally considered to be "food safe", definitely look at shellac. But I too am from the camp that believes we don't have much to fear from a fully cured finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnell Hagen Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 All I can think of now is it's your location, perhaps your basement is too moist/cool. If you've had more success with poly go for it, but in my experience Watco is as easy as it gets. Not a full 30 days, but better than "twas the night before Christmas" like a few years ago. (I was up at 2 AM putting the last coat of shellac on a play kitchen for my daughter with my wife Christmas eve. A story for another day.) Ha! I hear that, more than once my gifts have been opened releasing a nasty puff of lacquer fumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HoboMonk Posted December 7, 2011 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 The use of "all" denotes that categorically "all" finishes are non-toxic once cured. This doesn't leave any wiggle room. What about those finishing products that still contain lead, heavy metals dryers and other substances that are known health hazards. The "safe once cured" echo appears in thousands of hits throughout the Internet. It is a signature phrase that is oft repeated, whether true or not. You won't find a definitive and authoritative reference that supports the oft echoed claim that "non-toxic once cured" is proven. Wood working magazine gurus, Internet videographers and bloggers don't count. "Cured" doesn't necessarily mean that a finishing product is rendered safe. Example: Food grade flax seed oil (linseed oil) is "food" safe. BLO, boiled linseed oil, is not food safe, whether cured (polymerized) or not, because it contains hazardous additives. BLO is not approved as a food product. Also, the term "cured" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing chemically for all wood finishing products. Technically, only the reactive finishes, e.g. drying oils and varnishes, cure, usually through a process called polymerization. The evaporative finishes, e.g. shellac and copal, don't cure , they only dry. Sometimes the evaporation of the solvent carrier for evaporative finishes is referred to as "curing." Example: In the USA denatured alcohol is made with a blend of potable and non-potable alcohols that, by design, are not safe to consume. However, they completely evaporate without leaving a trace, when the finish is applied and allowed to dry (cure). Some countries use additives that do not evaporate to denature their alcohols, leaving the dried finish non-consumable. Note: Shellac used in wood finishes is not required to be refined to that same standards as food-grade shellac or medicinal shellac. Saying that some forms of shellac are used in foods and medicine, therefore all forms of shellac are edible is like saying some water is drinkable therefore all water is drinkable. Personally and professionally (I'm a former Clinical Chemist and Toxicologist) I don't believe in categorical positions nor absolute dichotomies where everything must be judged as either one extreme or the other. Their are degrees for everything. I've been involved in the paints and coating business as a consultant and I know that wood finishing manufacturers cannot make "food safe" claims without proving it. In the USA, the FDA lists those ingredients that are relatively safe when used as recommended in the manufacture of wood finishing products, but only as contact safe and not food safe. When a manufacturer makes extended claims about their products they must adhere to consumer protection regulations and provide third party testing to support their claims. Most, but not all modern wood finishing products produced in regulated countries are safe for casual contact and are not toxic when they are used as directed. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nateswoodworks Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Personally I will only use shellac or waterbased on anything a child will touch at that age, in my mind it's better safe than sorry. I am sure that you would be just fine with many different options that are out there but thats MHO.Hope your son loves his track, I remember countless hours on the floor with Thomas the train and we loved every min. of it. Are you taking notes Marc Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmac Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 You gotta love it when somebody who knows what they're talking about pipes up. Thanks, HoboMonk. -- Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 HM: I agree "all" was a very poor choice of words. My reference to cured dry film finishes was meant to refer to reactive varnishes. Related to the OP's original question, to offset the information provided to me by my finish suppliers, can you point me to something that might explain possible hazards in cured Arm-R-Seal if used on toys? I understand finish manufactures don't often pursue a food-safe rating, as the additional sales don't provide an ROI, and statements about safety often invite lawsuits. Even food safe things sometimes end up with problems... case in point, BPA in water bottles... Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Hope these kids don't grow up drinking and smoking, flying in airplanes driving in cars, listening to loud music. Eating McDonald's, sugar, having sex! The Chinese selling toys to Americans with lead in the paint????? I knew a family that didn't seal their outdoor deck for fear of getting a sliver in a barefoot. Might cause cancer. I know...I know.....I know........ -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboMonk Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 FWIW: Watco Danish Oil is an oil/resin/solvent blend. It contains various oils and not just linseed oil. It doesn't contain polyurethane varnish. Since there is no industry standard on using the term "Danish Oil", other products may contain anything they wish. Another brand of "Danish Oil" contains tung oil, varnish and solvent. One particular brand of "Danish Oil" contains only linseed oil and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboMonk Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 HM: I agree "all" was a very poor choice of words. My reference to cured dry film finishes was meant to refer to reactive varnishes. Related to the OP's original question, to offset the information provided to me by my finish suppliers, can you point me to something that might explain possible hazards in cured Arm-R-Seal if used on toys? I understand finish manufactures don't often pursue a food-safe rating, as the additional sales don't provide an ROI, and statements about safety often invite lawsuits. Even food safe things sometimes end up with problems... case in point, BPA in water bottles... Thanks! See GF Toymaker's Finish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks, HM! I'm sitting here with the Toymaker's Finish MSDS next to the Arm-R-Seal MSDS. They look identical to me. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks, HM! I'm sitting here with the Toymaker's Finish MSDS next to the Arm-R-Seal MSDS. They look identical to me. Am I missing something? Both are a top coat finish and a direct contact product for the most part. MSDS will not state if the finish CPSIA certified. A call to general should clear this up. If it does not have a CPSIA certification it is either not safe for a rug rat to chew on or the manufacturer just hasnt sent the product in for certification. Either way I wouldnt call any product 100% safe unless its certified. Most if not all finishes are safe for non ingestion and vapor hazards even chalking but that does not mean they are safe for consumption even after curing. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboMonk Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Note: An MSDS is not a consumer document. It is for materials handling and possible hazardous materials declarations. Not all ingredients are required to be listed in an MSDS, only those that might present a hazard. Some manufacturers offer as little information as possible to prevent revealing their formulations and to allow for minor changes without further documentation. Contact the vendor for further explanation of possible CPSIA certification. Some cat foods and my aunts gefilte fish might contain the same ingredients but only one is Kosher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Kids chew on table legs, backs and arms of chairs. So is that coating bad for kids? If I understand, its ok to put the "bad stuff" on tables and chairs, but only the good stuff on kids toys and salad bowls? Didn't they remove the lead from all paint years ago? Or was it only on paint for kids toys? Why would any US finish manufacture put themselves in play and have a harmful finish in the home? These finish makers have children too and live in homes and have furniture. We as parents, you see a child chewing the finish off a toy down to the wood. You take that toy away, its no longer safe to play with........If not, it's like letting your kid play with a tooth pick. Hell....we have a teflon frying pan at home and the coating is flaking off....do I keep using it...or throw it away. Is Teflon safe for me to eat in my food? :( -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Kids chew on table legs, backs and arms of chairs. So is that coating bad for kids? If I understand, its ok to put the "bad stuff" on tables and chairs, but only the good stuff on kids toys and salad bowls? Didn't they remove the lead from all paint years ago? Or was it only on paint for kids toys? Why would any US finish manufacture put themselves in play and have a harmful finish in the home? These finish makers have children too and live in homes and have furniture. We as parents, you see a child chewing the finish off a toy down to the wood. You take that toy away, its no longer safe to play with........If not, it's like letting your kid play with a tooth pick. Hell....we have a teflon frying pan at home and the coating is flaking off....do I keep using it...or throw it away. Is Teflon safe for me to eat in my food? :( -Ace- It simply means we cant say a finish is 100% safe. But you are correct. If the product is made for children under 12 it has to be certified. So no your coffee table does not need to be certified. Some products are exempt and raw wood is one of them. Personally I never made toys for my kids they were happier to play in the scrap pile, chew on the phone book or play in a cardboard box. As of right now its all up in the air mainly because they are not enforcing testing until after the end of this year. Which simply means you wont know if its safe until its been tested. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CessnaPilotBarry Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks, guys! I went to the MSDS in search of clues that might make one formula more hazardous than the other. As a pilot and aircraft owner, I painfully understand the government certification difference between the two items. Trust me, it's painful to look at two identical parts and compare the prices of the FAA certified version and the Tractor Supply version. The pain greatly increases when you realize the parts are sourced identically! Paperwork and liability can add plenty of zeros... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 So the moral of the story is …let your kid eat “fully cured” finish “only” in moderation? Where the hell is my beer and cigarettes…I need to think on this. My kid (under 12) uses hand sanitizer 62% Ethyl Alcohol. Sure hope he don't put that in his mouth. Wonder if that is 100% safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewoodwhisperer Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks, guys! I went to the MSDS in search of clues that might make one formula more hazardous than the other. As a pilot and aircraft owner, I painfully understand the government certification difference between the two items. Trust me, it's painful to look at two identical parts and compare the prices of the FAA certified version and the Tractor Supply version. The pain greatly increases when you realize the parts are sourced identically! Paperwork and liability can add plenty of zeros... From a very trusted source, I found out that GF's Salad Bowl Finish is really just Seal-a-Cell that underwent the certification process. Obviously we can't know for sure, but I suspect something similar is going on with their Toymaker's Finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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