9 replies to this topic

[CJC5151]

Any of you guys use these things. I must say I never gave it much though in my old shop of 3000 sq ft. But with the new one now at 1200 things are getting pretty tight pretty fast. Checked out laguna. They have some interesting 5 piece combo sets. And I know there are plenty more mini max i think, and robland. So here is what im looking for:

Is the smaller foot print worth the time to change from machine to machine
Is the time to change a PITA
Is accuracy an issue with all these crazy Changable parts, does it take for ever to re calibrate each machine
Price to me didnt seem that bad 6-9 grand but that includded a 5hp ts, 3hp jointer/planer, a 3 hp shaper, and a 3 hp horizonal mortiser
3 different motors and the sliding ts is pretty cool as well

Any one that has one of these, let me know what you like or dilike about them please

[dwacker]

The Laguna is junk. If yourgoing to do a multifunction the fielder or minimax would be the way to go. Stay away from Laguna, Robland and hammer. But on the other hand you would have to spend three or four times the Laguna to get a decent slider / multifunction.


Don

[CJC5151]

Dwacker, Do you have a multi functional machine? Have you ever owned a laguna? What makes laguna junk? Are u talking about all Laguna tools or just the multi-machines? Thanks

[dwacker]

CJC5151, on 11 February 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Dwacker, Do you have a multi functional machine? Have you ever owned a laguna? What makes laguna junk? Are u talking about all Laguna tools or just the multi-machines? Thanks

Laguna multfunctins are sloppy and overal inaccurate and cheap feelin. No, when I rebuilt my shop I flew down to CA to Laguna they put me in touch with an owner. I spend some time in the gentlemans shop while he showed me the ins and outs right along side his new Felder. I also have spent years working with Felder and know quite a Few shops that use them so can play with them any time I like. I flew to minimax hq and got put in touch with an owner and got to play with the minimax and got to help in the guys cab shop for two days just to play with his multifunction. Laguna is like a cheap child's toy compared to either. The Laguna is much cheaper but for a pro there is no way in he!? For a hobbiest if you have hair you won't for long after buying the Laguna.

Not all Laguna tools are junk you just have to be careful. I owned their slot mortiser for years, not the cheaper one that one is junk. The one with the fixed work piece. In fact back then it was identical to the Felder and probably still is today. Their band saws are built for the hobbiest and do well. Their plain table saws are ok for the hobbiest. Their cyclones are one of the best on the market.


Honestly I a could have saved money buying the top of the line Felder vs pm. I was just to chicken to pull the trigger. When they go down your down for weeks. I've got to meet the needs of my customers. Every one I know that uses euro machines has a shop big enough to house backup equipment and the euro is one of at least two sets.
Don

[CJC5151]

thanks for your advise. What size shop do you have, sounds like a big operation. Would your opinion change at all for a guy (like my self) who runs a small operation. I mean I know junk is junk, but i would assume volume has a huge contribution in the tools reliability. Just wondering. I am generally the only one in my shop unless im really swampped and have to hire a guy for a few days. I love being my own boss and probably work harder then i would if i worked for someone else. That being said, i can be around my kids more and arange my schedual around them, and fortunately my wife also has a good job that she loves.

[dwacker]

CJC5151, on 12 February 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

thanks for your advise. What size shop do you have, sounds like a big operation. Would your opinion change at all for a guy (like my self) who runs a small operation. I mean I know junk is junk, but i would assume volume has a huge contribution in the tools reliability. Just wondering. I am generally the only one in my shop unless im really swampped and have to hire a guy for a few days. I love being my own boss and probably work harder then i would if i worked for someone else. That being said, i can be around my kids more and arange my schedual around them, and fortunately my wife also has a good job that she loves.

I guess you have to ask yourself do you have the time during your work day to fiddle with equipment issues. Can you afford for the center of your shop to go down for potentialy weeks at a time. Im have no clue what type of work your doing, what your volume is or how you run your business. Alot of folks get cought up in space rather than the business side. My shop is tiny but I have more space and larger equipment than the average one or two man shop. That may sound odd. How can you have a smaller shop more space and bigger equipment? If you campartmentalize your business and concentrate on the different areas one at a time your going to see that you can produce more in a smaller space. I came from a factory woodworking enviroment so have seen first hand efficiency is the key to making a profit. Your business as a woodworker is not just a home woodworking business, if you treat it as such it becomes more so just a hobby and you should never count on a hobby to support your family.
My business is two seperate entities one is the manufacturing business and the other is the retail and wholesale sales. I dont work hard in fact really only work 4 days a week most weeks and can still gross a couple grand a day. I get to spend more time with my grandson than most folks spend with their kids. Look at the manufacturing side of your business. As a woodworker you are a manufacturer that only sells to one customer. That one customer is your sales business.
As a manufacturer you have to make a net profit of 4% to meet the national averages. This means that when you sell a product to your sales business it has to be sold at a low enough price for your sales business to make at least 60%gpm while keeping a competetive pricing structure.
What the he&! does this have to do with a saw or machine purchase? When you make a business purchase or even set up shop you need to do the math you cant go at it willy nilly. Cheaper and smaller may seem like a good option at first glance but you have to only look at the manufacturing side of your business. How can you spend less time doing a job. Every minute you spend in your shop is decreasing your NPM and taking time away from the kids. For example, I cut quite a few sheet goods on average 20 sheets a day 4 days a week. At first glance it would seem Im a good candidate for a nice Felder slider. First I'd have to unload the sheet into the shop then flop it up onto the slider and chop it up. If I spent 30 minutes breaking my back getting those sheets into the shop and breaking my back lifting them onto the slider Ive wasted 30 to 45 minutes of time. Instead I back the cube up to the door and never lift a single sheet. I set my fence and start sliding right from the van across the saw. Just by buying the right kind of saw for my shop set up Ive made money and do alot less work. I go into the shop very early in the morning and cut all my sheet good and drink a pot of coffee and have plenty of time to get back into the house before 7am and spend some time with my bride before she heads out to the office. If I manually loaded all those sheet goods I'd be tired, have less money in my pocket and not much of partner to my wife. When it comes time to stick stiles and rails I can fire up the shaper and cut the profile with the power feed running full speed at 66 fpm. Thats faster than any human can feed and faster that a guy in his 50's can keep up with. If I spent that time on a router Id have hours invested but instead its minutes. The same goes for your drum sander thread. A tiny little griz drum sander may seem like a good option at first. It takes up very little space but really whats it going to do for you. The drum is 4" in diameter. The cut quality is going to be like comparing a shapers cut quality to a router. The motor is so underpowered its going to die real soon. Can you afford to be without it even with all its short commings?

Your shop at 1200 sq ft is much larger than mine in fact more than double the size. I just dont think your thinking about efficiency. The one reason we love working from home is to spend time with the folks we love. If your spending so much time that your taking away from that then you might as well get a job. So in short you have to take a good look and do whats right for your business and do whats right for your family. Everyone has different priorities, personally I'm pretty good at finding a middle ground and even better at being lazy.


Don

[CJC5151]

Makes a lot of sense thanks. I appreciate the help. Do u have shop pictures is love to see the layout. Thanks again

[dwacker]

CJC5151, on 13 February 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Makes a lot of sense thanks. I appreciate the help. Do u have shop pictures is love to see the layout. Thanks again

There ya go. As you can see its tiny but fairly well equipt.

[CJC5151]

I see what u have done. U basically eliminated any shop furniture and basically just have a machine room. I like the idea but where do u store Ur small stuff bits,sand paper supplys and what not. They can't all fit in those little wall cabinets, I don't think my screws and hardware would even fit in there. Where do u store material. I assume dc is in attic or outside which I would love to do but I'm worries about the noise for neighbors and my roof is only a 4 pitch. I see your shop isn't insulated maybe u are waiting to get some down time to insulater aand sheet the walls is that why u don't have much storage. I guess what I'm saying is I love your tool layout but I would need another building to hold all other stuff

[dwacker]

I may get around to insulating eventually. There is plenty of storage. Every machine except the drill press houses the necesary accesories for that machine. I bring wood in by the job. I do have some lumber racks but they are usually empty by the time a job is done. I don't keep scraps period. Sheet goods live in my cube van until they are cut. The cabinets hold a half dozen or so routers, domino, air nailers and plenty of misc supplies. The three drawers hold stuff for their area. One is two ro sanders and discs. One is screw guns and face frame clamps. Last one saw blades and throat plates. 4 dado sets are in the cabinet. Out back I have a little 5x5 shed with 50 gallons of cv and everthing bulk like sandpaper and hinges. Mostly its lawn equipment. Dust collector is out side. Don't care about the neighbor I lived here first. A little more space would be nice but as long as I don't hoard then really there is no need. If I had a shop as big as yours the only thing id do differently is build a seperate assembly table. Still wouldn't add a bunch of hoarding holes.

Don