Air Cleaner location

[sbarton22]

After getting repayment from my unsubsidized loan to Uncle Sam, I am going to finally add some dust collection to the shop. I'm going to add a 2HP dust collector of some sort with a .5 micron canister filter. (not sure if I'm going to do the HF + Winn filter or go for the powermatic that I saw on CL)

Along with that, I want to add an air cleaner. I haven't done a ton of research on that one yet. So, my question is where to locate it.

If I hang it from the ceiling, I can catch all fo the floating particles. But am I only going to grab the stuff that floats that high?

If I hang it down low, say under my assmebly table, then it catches the particles only as they drift down...so they have been in my breathing range most of the time.

Perhaps I am overthinking this?

Any advice on good models and locations to mount it would be greatly appreciated!

s|b

[dwacker]

I would save the money spent on an air filter and spend it on area that need improvement at the machine. In my shop the #1 dust maker is the tablesaw. For me an overarm would do much more than any air cleaner. Look at the machines that make the fine dust, tablesaw, router table and band saw. Big gulps are great and do more than overhead air cleaners.

Don

[STL Woodguy]

In my small shop, I have a Jet overhead air filter in addition to a dust collector, and while that sounds overkill, I have to contend with the area also being a laundry room as well as having the heater in there (doing what one can with the space one has). And thus far, the overhead filter has done a beautiful job of keeping most of the dust away from the outer parameter of the room.

I hung mine overhead in the center of the room, directly over the table saw, which seems to allow for good circulation. A fair portion of the finer mess that comes off the top of the saw ends up changing course and drifting up into the filter, kinda beautiful to watch sometimes. I would still rather trap it at the source, but until I get an overhead guard that a dust attachment on it, this works out nicely. Also, the overhead filter covers things non-powertool related (like sanding).

[Jim Heinbuch]

I have a lot of respect for the many members of TWW forum. I have to disagree with Don though. If you only improve one machine, say the table saw, then you have how many others that are still producing dust? Router, sander(s), etc. I think most of us have it suspended from the ceiling because it is then out of the way and removes from the area where you breath. Although us shorties it is still over our head. The fan on it tries to suck in the air from all over and if the CFM is large enough it will filter the air in your shop several times an hour.

[dwacker]

I have a lost of respect for the many members of TWW forum. I have to disagree with Don though. If you only improve one machine, say the table saw, then you have how many others that are still producing dust? Router, sander(s), etc. I think most of us have it suspended from the ceiling because it is then out of the way and removes from the area where you breath. Although us shorties it is still over our head. The fan on it tries to suck in the air from all over and if the CFM is large enough it will filter the air in your shop several times an hour.

I'm sorry youve lost respect if that was intended for me. Honestly collection at the source will do more than any overhead filter. If there is nothing for the filter to remove its not doing much good. Spending time and resouces collecting at the source is more beneficial than patching a problem with an overhead air filter. Many if not all machines benefit from better or modified dust collection at the source. Router tables especially can be improved greatly with little investment. Sanders can be improved and in todays day and age of near dustless sanders there really is no reason not to catch it at the source. I had four powermatics hanging in my shop for months, the benefit from just buying a better sander far outweighed the use of four fairly powerful dust filters and the sale of those filters afforded the purchase of more better quality sanders. I have a nearly dust free shop with no air filters running machiner 8+ hours a day. Other than touching up with a swiffer duster once a week I really find that collection at the souce has proven to be more beneficial than $1600 worth of air filter units hanging form the ceiling.

A quote from Bill the dust collection "expert" "The expert firms found that airborne fine dust behaves more like a gas and spreads so quickly that air cleaners and normal sized exhaust fans fail to clear the air fast enough to avoid unhealthy exposures and to avoid failing all the different air quality tests. They learned good fine dust collection requires that we must collect the fine dust at each source as it gets made then get rid of that dust. "

Don

[Vic]

Don, I think that was either a typo or auto correct. Reading it twice, I think he meant to say he has LOTS of respect.

That said, I agree with Don. I actually have phenomenal dust collection and plan on selling the new in the box JDS I bought ages ago. I've never had a need for it.

(null)

[dcustoms]

I'm sorry youve lost respect if that was intended for me. Honestly collection at the source will do more than any overhead filter. If there is nothing for the filter to remove its not doing much good. Spending time and resouces collecting at the source is more beneficial than patching a problem with an overhead air filter. Many if not all machines benefit from better or modified dust collection at the source. Router tables especially can be improved greatly with little investment. Sanders can be improved and in todays day and age of near dustless sanders there really is no reason not to catch it at the source. I had four powermatics hanging in my shop for months, the benefit from just buying a better sander far outweighed the use of four fairly powerful dust filters and the sale of those filters afforded the purchase of more better quality sanders. I have a nearly dust free shop with no air filters running machiner 8+ hours a day. Other than touching up with a swiffer duster once a week I really find that collection at the souce has proven to be more beneficial than $1600 worth of air filter units hanging form the ceiling.

A quote from Bill the dust collection "expert" "The expert firms found that airborne fine dust behaves more like a gas and spreads so quickly that air cleaners and normal sized exhaust fans fail to clear the air fast enough to avoid unhealthy exposures and to avoid failing all the different air quality tests. They learned good fine dust collection requires that we must collect the fine dust at each source as it gets made then get rid of that dust. "

Don

Don you hit the nail on the head and I couldn't agree with you more. I have acturally had the pleasure of talking with bill pentz on a few occations and he describes shop air cleaners as dust pumps. In that all they do is circulate the finest most dangerious dust around the shop. The only way to get rid of it is to have great dust collection at the source. To define great dust collection is 1000 CFM at the tool that is producing dust. Don't let it get into the air. After doing all my dust colections research and talking will Bill I took mine down and focused all my efforts on at the source collection.

[sbarton22]

What about sanding? I do that in various spots in the shop.....on the lathe, on the assembly table, on the bench, etc. And I have found no great solution for dust collection at the lathe.

The other part I was thinking about was the fact that I have a basenent shop and I want to stop residule dust from creeping into the rest of the house or clogging up my HVAC filter.

[dwacker]

What about sanding? I do that in various spots in the shop.....on the lathe, on the assembly table, on the bench, etc. And I have found no great solution for dust collection at the lathe.

The other part I was thinking about was the fact that I have a basenent shop and I want to stop residule dust from creeping into the rest of the house or clogging up my HVAC filter.

Its still about collecting it at the source. That may mean a big gulp set up with a higher cfm dust collector for the lathe. On the bench is pretty simple a decent sander is usually the answer. You dont necessasarily have to buy a festool vac but a regular shop vac with a drywall bag will just as good of job. The bottom of the barrel festool sander does a good job as does the PC low profile and even better is the mirka. I can put in a 40hr work week and still just clean up with a swiffer duster and the shop looks like it never gets used other than the stain I spill on the floor Simple inexpensive devices like this do a great job if you invest in the right dust collector.

[sbarton22]

What is this device?

[dwacker]

What is this device?

Just a dust collector adapter. Fit a 4" hose. Will also fit big gulp. Available at peachtree. Stand it next to your router, behind the lathe move where needed. $60 well spent.

[Vic]

Here's a link to all sorts of dust collection accessories. http://www.ptreeusa.com/dustFlangeHoods.htm

(null)

[AceHoleInOne]

I located my shop made air cleaner at the rear of my basement shop. It hangs pretty low, if your not careful, you can bump your head on it. 2 20x20 filters, one on either side. Works great. Its amazing how much dust the thing collects. If I recall, cost about 100.00 to make...attic fan/plywood/filters/switch. So no complaints of it being in the back of the shop out of the way.

Dust collection is a touchy subject. But Woodworking is dusty. I wouldn't say your over-thinking things.....think about what works for you and how much you want to spend.

[sbarton22]

This has been really helpful. this seems like one of those belts + suspenders subjects where overkill is only a good thing.

[dcustoms]

Another thought about dust control in your house is to creat a negative pressure in your shop. You can do this by adding a bathroom vent fan to the ceiling and keep it runing and vented out side. The negative pressure will not allow the dust to leave the shop and go into the house. With that being said this will not work if you have natural gas or LPG appliances in your basement. It will draw the CO into your shop.

[dwacker]

This has been really helpful. this seems like one of those belts + suspenders subjects where overkill is only a good thing.

No air cleaners help keep the dust in suspension. The theory is good but works better for fumes than dust. Even though some dust is being removed from the air the air cleaner by default is pushing air lifting the dust off surfaces and if placed in the right spot or close to a wall creating a vortex type effect. This is why OSHA does not even consider them as part of your overall air management system in wood shops. They are however considered as part of fume mitigation if your using charcoal filters.

Don

[sbarton22]

No air cleaners help keep the dust in suspension. The theory is good but works better for fumes than dust. Even though some dust is being removed from the air the air cleaner by default is pushing air lifting the dust off surfaces and if placed in the right spot or close to a wall creating a vortex type effect. This is why OSHA does not even consider them as part of your overall air management system in wood shops. They are however considered as part of fume mitigation if your using charcoal filters.

Don

That's not really what I meant, but I understand your point.

[jHop]

My understanding of the dust collection issue (as relating to an additional filter) is that the overhead air filtration units, such as the Jet product, work best when mounted above, and slightly off center. Meaning that they help create a "vortex-like" air circulation, for clarification. Keep in mind, I'm not certified in any dust collection or HVAC systems, so I may be wrong.

I had a brief stint working with some individuals who were IICRC certified. (Institute of Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certified) While I realize that 1) the previous sentence contains serious errors and 2) I was there briefly, so I am not fully qualified to venture an opinion (as that is all it can be, without more training), there are some things I wish to relate from my experience.

First off, one thing that was mentioned (since this company dealt with flood damage, they were trying to draw contaminants and moisture from rooms) was that the air flow needed to be just that: a flow. They usually set the fans at between a 30 and 45 degree angle from the wall, every (roughly) 6 to 8 feet. This encouraged the air to flow into the center of the room, creating that moving vortex of air circulation, without dangerous velocities. Secondly, they had a separate filtration system (in this case a large dehumidifier with particulate filters) with it's own air circulation device. This was placed usually in line with one of the air fans, not located in the center. The idea being you wanted to catch the air as it moved through the circular route it took, not drag it into another pathway and prevent it's effectiveness by making it work harder.

The last little advice I learned from this was that these rooms were as sealed off as possible during this initial process. So they would set up the equipment and then shut the door. At a later specified time (size of the affected room plays a large factor), they would come in for the sanitize and cleaning process.

How this relates to woodworking is for the air filtration. If the center of the shop works for you, then by all means, leave it there. I'd recommend, for new installation processes, though, you locate it to one side, where it can create a circular air movement. Keep in mind, however, that the blocky nature of most machines will inhibit air flow throughout the shop. And, while keeping the doors and vents closed works to keep dust contained in one area, you are then moving through this area and "stirring the pot" every time you move.

So, while a self-contained unit like the Jet is not absolutely required (see all the internet plans on making your own system, some using just filters duct-taped to the box fan - which is in my unsubsidized loan repayment range), it is a marvelous thing to add to any shop.

It is also not supposed to be your primary source of dust collection, for all the above reasons. But as another weapon in your anti-dust arsenal, I'd think it's a great idea. I'd put it overhead, where you are least likely to need that overhead clearance or bump your head/ stock/ tool/ whatever on it. The closer you can get dust collection systems to the sources, though, the better off you are. (down draft sanding tables, Festool vacuum, dedicated DC systems, etc.)

Remember Marc's video on cleaning out the shop with a leaf blower? You're still going to have dust. The air filtration will cut down on that, but not eliminate that. Adding a 1500 CFM floor fan to your shop will just stir up the dust storm, not solve the issue. (The 1500 fan was the smallest air drying fan the company I worked for used.)

(And while you're getting your repayment handled.... some shameless self promotion. Not required, but I thought it might get a chuckle. The stickers have not been updated yet on the site.)

[AceHoleInOne]

I second to keeping the shop clean. Get a dust mask on and blow all the floor joist clean and shop lights by reversing my shop vac air flow using the exhaust port. Do it about once a month. I also have my air cleaner mounted askew for air movement as Jhop describes.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

My shop is rectangular, divided by a center staircase, with a major machine and seperate bench area.

My air cleaner is mounted in the half of my shop that holds the table saw, router table, drum sander, and the cyclone. The intake end of the ceiling-mounted cleaner is centrally located over this area. I also have a very nice cyclone, as well as an overarm collector on my table saw. Smoke tests done from the three worst offenders show a good flow into the cleaner, which is equipped with pre and electrostatic filters. A big key is to CLEAN and REPLACE the filters regularily!

The "good" air is blown at a wall, which cyclones around to the bench area.

At the bench area, I have an autostart HEPA vacuum that is used with sanders, my biscuit joiner, and handheld router dust ports, as well as used as a vacuum.

I'm no dust-free "Tyme", but I'm extremely satisfied with the overall setup.

[Vic]

If you're set on getting an air filter, I'll get the info on my JDS that is new and still in the box. I'll sell it for 1/2 price of a new purchase plus shipping fee.

(null)

[daneger]

A good addition to those filter-type air cleaners is an electrostatic filter. Essentially this would replace the media filter (and potentially the bag filter if you want) and give much better removal of small particles. Electrostatic is the only way to effectively get what you're looking for, unless you modify the dust collector with an oversized box to house multiple HEPA filters. And HEPA filters are expen$ive and will need to be periodically replaced. Good electrostatic filters are able to collect 95% of 0.3-1 micron dust.

Examples of electrostatics that you might consider: (i have no stake in these, but use both of them in my own house)

. Aprilaire 5000 (would screw onto your air cleaner inlet, and require separate 120V power)

. Aircleen 1500 (would replace your primary filter on your air cleaner, and wire into the fan control)

The only other option I see is to ventilate your shop! If you don't use HEPA and/or electrostatic filters, I agree with the other posters that you're wasting money.

I disagree with the idea that collecting this fine dust at the source is better, unless the dust collector has HEPA and/or electrostatic filtration, or alternatively is exhausted to outdoors. You can collect dust at the table saw or sander, but if it isn't filtered from the air at the dust collector, it's just being blown into your breathing air anyway. I think you should do both - they are complimentary but neither solves the whole problem on its own.

That's why I have an air cleaner in my shop... Living in Denver, I can't afford to dump my heat into the outdoors all winter long!

[laanguiano]

I will say that I agree.. at the source dust collection is the first priority..and sometimes cheapest if u already have a dust collector.

But I will also say that air filters work too... I know this because my air filters get a nice amount of dust on them after a while.

I placed my air filter near my dust collector so it will pick up any particles that get exhausted from my dust collector filter. My air filter has hepa filter, and i havent been able to purchase the hepa on my dust collector yet so it helps too.

[MR-FOCUS]

I heard once from a water filter distributor that you either have a water filter or YOU ARE THE WATER FILTER.

I think the same applies to air filtration in our Wood Shops. You either have an air filter or YOU ARE THE FILTER.

Personally I believe anything you can do keep wood dust out of the air from your equipment (Jointer, Planer, Table Saw, Sander, etc…) is priority one and HIGHLY recommended.

Wood dust in the air can be detrimental to your health as it affects the air sacs (alveoli) in your lungs ability to absorb oxygen.

While some wood dust just irritate your lungs others are toxic and poisonous – See Links Below

Wood Toxicity and How to Protect Yourself

Toxic Woods and How They Affect Your Health

Unless you wear a mask every time you are woodworking I believe you should have 2 types of Dust Protection in your shop.

1. A Dust Extractor to collect the dust from your equipment at it source.

2. An Air Filter (cleaner) to remove the residual dust left floating in the air.

 

My Personal Dust Collection Strategy

I have a Powermatic PM1300 Dust collector with 2-Micron Canister Filter – This gets 90% of the dust at the source.

I also have a JET Air filter hanging 12” from the top of the 10 foot ceiling joists in my shop (from eye bolts and chains which allow me to adjust the height).

My air filter is mounted directly above and just behind my table saw to supplement the dust collection from underneath it. I get very little dust around my saw even after ripping several 4’x8’ sheets of plywood.

I turn it on whenever I’m in the shop working and turn it off an hour or two after I’m done to clean up any residual dust in the air.

(Side Note)

I have CCTV Infrared Dome Cameras in the corners of my shop which capture the dust lingering in the air when I turn off the lights.

 

Even without the cameras you can do your own test by grabbing a flashlight and turning off the lights in your shop.

 

When you turn the flashlight on in the dark you'll see all the dust floating in the air.

 

 

I also have 2 Festool HEPA Dust Extractors (CT36 & MIDI) to capture the dust from my routers, chop saw, sanders, etc…

The way I see it ... I only have one pair of lungs and their priceless.

Just my thoughts

 

[pkinneb]

Welcome! That's quite the first post