What would you like to know about building a shop?


Vic

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Because my day job is as an energy efficiency consultant for a public utility in the commercial, industrial and agriculture sectors and I have a pretty decent shop, I get asked a lot of questions. Some are about lighting, heating and cooling, and general construction. I also stay up on building science in the residential sector, as that is my other passion besides woodworking. I've been thinking of writing a blog post or several, but would like to know what you would like.

Please let me know your questions and I'll answer them to the best of my abilities. I have a lot of contacts in the field, too. So, if I don't know the question, I will track it down or let you know I just don't know.

Normally, I want to only blog about projects, but you have all given much to me and I would like to repay you by addressing the one area I have some expertise.

Vic

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Wow Vic, what a nice offer! I'm not sure if this is something you may know about but I thought I would ask. My home is over here in Spokane, WA and I have a full size unfinished basement that I am turning into a woodshop. I would like to insulate the cement walls, perhaps the floor as well, and finish it up with wood walls. I'm not sure what to put on the floor. I've been researching what I need to do but I keep getting different answers. It seems it depends on where you live and how your house was built. With my house being built in 1996 and living in Spokane, I was hoping you might have an idea of what I need to have done? I've learned not to put plastic against the cement and perhaps the rigid foam board is the way to go for the cement walls? Should I put the rigid foam boards then the studs then the wood paneling? What would you recommend for flooring? I also really appreciated your reply about lighting in the shop. I really have no idea what I'm doing and would welcome any advice you may have.

Shannon

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Shannon, I'll do some research for the answer on your floor. You need to make sure you don't mess with your radon mitigation. The Spokane area has high levels. How well is your landscape graded away from the house and do you know how they addressed the drainage plane on the exterior of your basement walls? I'll get back to you. Because it was built in '96, WA state code should have dictated a waterproof membrane, which could have been an applied product on the outside, prior to back filling. Current code mandates a thermal break, also. Some builders were doing that back then, but not all. The thermal break would have been probably 2" blue board to meet the R10 requirement.

You mentioned that you've "learned not to put plastic against the concrete", what did you experience?

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Thanks Vic. I have a radon thingy (I don't know what it is called) that is supposed to pull the radon from around the ground and shoots it out of the garage roof. I don't know what the builders did to address the drainage or if they put the thermal break. Is there a way to find out? I only learned not to put plastic against the cement based on what I have read. I had no person experience.

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Yes Vic, what an offer! thank you for your wisdom and the offering - I will move my question we started on Twitter here. Basically, the question of A/C in the shop. I have a typical 2-2 1/2 car garage space for a workshop. While no cars have ever seen the inside or will, the garage door is our main entry into home. Looking at the portable ductless units that have reached reasonable price points, my question is to their effectiveness versus investment? I have no experience with them at all. There are no windows in the shop, only one large overhead door. I am not against putting in an exhaust vent, I have read it resembles a dryer vent.

Looking to use only when working in the shop which equates to few hours during the week after work when lucky and 10 or so hours on the weekend. Would you know how effective these units are? Ballpark investment? Monthly operating costs? thanks for any information Vic!

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Jon, can you point me to what particular unit you're looking at, or range of units. When I think of portable, I think a non spit system, which can't have good efficiency, simply because A/C/heat pumps are a refrigeration cycle and in the process of cooling need to dump heat. Also, humidity comes into play in a big way on the cooling side. If you're talking about a ductless split unit, I love them. They have the highest efficiency of anything available, except a water source (pump and dump) heat pump.

When it comes to investment. That is a loaded question, because it is all perspective in how you view your time in the shop. Are you going to cool no matter what, or just not go in when it sucks? If you are going to do something, then I would look at what makes the most sense over a time period that makes sense to you. That time period will differ with everyone. Is this a place you plan to stay for an extended period. Ductless units can fairly easily be taken to another place. You can oversize them for you current place with the idea of size for the future. Because they are inverter driven, they can be oversized and get better efficiency, without the drawback of short cycling, which is when the A/C unit comes down to temperature faster than it takes to dehumidify, leaving a cold and clammy environment.

You also said the garage door is the "main" door? Is that the overhead door? If you're going to condition the space, you'll want to use another access. Is your overhead door insulated? How good is the air sealing? I opted for a set up double doors on my shop because overhead doors are very problematic to properly air seal and insulate. If you're going to condition the space, you'll want to address air sealing at the very least.

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I think my question would be something similar to Shannon's. My basement is pretty uneven. With the house being built in 1912 on a slight hill, plus the floor drain, it goes up and down with a difference of about 8 inches within the confines of the shop.

I'd like to put down something to make it all level. One idea was to put stringers down, then put sheathing down. Is this the best/easiest way? Or another idea was to put a membrane down then pour concrete and have gravity do its thing. There probably is a simple way to do this, but it's just not coming to me.

Thanks!

Nick, you're situation is more of a technical engineering question. Again, you need to make sure you don't seal in moisture problems. On an old house like that, I would think you're going to need to consult with a local engineer, or the very least a local contractor who has been successful in working on old house basement scenarios. I know of several approaches, but in my opinion, it's too specific to give or get advice about via a forum like this.

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You are a brave man Vic. I hope you have plenty of free time to help these guys out.

Dave, I'll always help out, if I have time. But, I'm gathering questions to get a better idea of what everyone is needing to know. I know lighting is big. I have a tool I'll post for that. I have a cost of heat calculator, also. And like I said, if I don't know I can't really answer. Nick's question is a good example. Shannon's is easier because it's a newer house that should be built to code for WA state.

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Glad to see you going ahead with all this! I think it will actually save you time to have the answers written up once on the blog instead of the dozens of times you get asked the same thing :) (guilty!)

In my case, I'd love for you to address how to best install an indoor rink in my shop; could you imagine the comfort and productivity increase?

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what kind of safety issues can i expect if i turn my uper area of my garage into a solar kiln. i want to combine the heat from my shop and the sun to dry lumber out faster. cant add onto the building as i have run out of space so i have to look up.

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what kind of safety issues can i expect if i turn my uper area of my garage into a solar kiln. i want to combine the heat from my shop and the sun to dry lumber out faster. cant add onto the building as i have run out of space so i have to look up.

First, I am not an engineer. Code enforcement generally looks at buildings to ascertain the safety of the structure and the systems within. My job is to make sure the details that will help the building consume the least amount of energy are completely and correctly completed. This includes things like air sealing, choice of heating systems, insulation and framing details. etc.

Unless your attic trusses were designed specifically to carry a load, as in a barn truss, I would not add load up there. If you have an engineer look at it and will sign off, then you're good to go, but it's doubtful.

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Glad to see you going ahead with all this! I think it will actually save you time to have the answers written up once on the blog instead of the dozens of times you get asked the same thing :) (guilty!)

In my case, I'd love for you to address how to best install an indoor rink in my shop; could you imagine the comfort and productivity increase?

You want to woodwork with blades on? OK. First, you need a really good ammonia system and don't forget to pick up a quality dehumidification system. A local rink purchased a really bad one and lost a lot of money before they figured it out.

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Vic--

I have one for you. I'm an architect, but I do exclusively commercial and am barely competent with residential details, so I'll throw a residential question out there. My brother is going to build a deck over the top of where his basement walks out. He wants to store his lawn mower, bikes, etc, under the deck. What kind of roof do you suggest that can somehow attach to the underside of the joists of the deck? We live in the Kansas City, so snow loads and shedding rain are a concern.

I first thought of lapping some corrugated material and mounting them with neoprene washer/screws. However, you would have to mount to the underside of the joists, so the neoprene would be on the "inside" of the space, therefore, water has already penetrated the shell. Furthermore, that roof would essentially create tubs of water as there would be no slope.

Have you seen anything like this or have any suggestions? It sounds like this must have been done a thousand times, and I am missing some obvious solution.

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This is a question I would refer to Dyami Plotke. I've seen a deck roof, but never participated in building one. I'll ask Dyami to come and comment on this. I left a message for Dyami over on google plus.

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Vic--

I have one for you. I'm an architect, but I do exclusively commercial and am barely competent with residential details, so I'll throw a residential question out there. My brother is going to build a deck over the top of where his basement walks out. He wants to store his lawn mower, bikes, etc, under the deck. What kind of roof do you suggest that can somehow attach to the underside of the joists of the deck? We live in the Kansas City, so snow loads and shedding rain are a concern.

I first thought of lapping some corrugated material and mounting them with neoprene washer/screws. However, you would have to mount to the underside of the joists, so the neoprene would be on the "inside" of the space, therefore, water has already penetrated the shell. Furthermore, that roof would essentially create tubs of water as there would be no slope.

Have you seen anything like this or have any suggestions? It sounds like this must have been done a thousand times, and I am missing some obvious solution.

Barton,

I've got two suggestions. I can't speak directly to eithers snow load, but both work here in New York, and the deck above them will handle most of the snow no matter where the deck is built.

1) fabricate U-shaped metal panels. Once the joists are installed, but before the decking is installed, slip the metal pieces betwen the joists. Screw the vertical legs of the metal panels to the sides of the joists. This is not 100% water tight, but it will catch the vast majority of rain. Not much will get between the panels and the joists. Install the panels so they're pitched away from the house and you can install a gutter to catch water at their end.

2) Loose lay EPDM membrane over the joists. Lay it so that it droops between the joists.the droop should be pitched away like the metal. Again, a gutter can be installed to catch the water. If the deck is bigger than a sheet of EPDM (10' wide), you should seam the EPDM. This method should be 100% watertight.

I've been a bit brief here, so any questions, please let me know.

good luck,

Dyami

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I'm seven years in and just finally building my outfeed table. But, today was 107 and my shop didn't go above 80 and my tent sale A/C unit I bought years ago died last year. I'm installing a ductless heat pump next year. My high efficiency propane furnace will be my back up then. With a 1000 gallon propane tank, I'll be set for BBQ for years.

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Hey Vic,

Not really an efficiency question but it could be... What would you say are the optimal humidity levels for a basement workshop (250 square feet), or at least upper and lower limits? I have a small finished basement that I keep between 30-35 RH and I'm concerned that it may be too dry. My tools love it, though.

I have a portable dehumidifier that I empty at least once a day - three gallon I think. Would a larger unit be more or less efficient and worth the upgrade? Ahh, there's an efficiency question.

Thanks for sharing your expertise, Vic!

@Paul - I like your shop rink idea. You could then commission Festool to design a shop Zamboni for ya. B)

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Everything that I've read says the ideal range is 45-55% for comfort. Keeping it at 35% won't hurt the house. If you don't experience sinus problems with it that low, I don't see a problem maintaining that level.

(null)

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Nick, you're situation is more of a technical engineering question. Again, you need to make sure you don't seal in moisture problems. On an old house like that, I would think you're going to need to consult with a local engineer, or the very least a local contractor who has been successful in working on old house basement scenarios. I know of several approaches, but in my opinion, it's too specific to give or get advice about via a forum like this.

I used to live in a century home, and had the shop area in the basement. While I'm not certified in anything except eating pyrogi and pasta, I looked into something similar. There are plenty of products out there that are self-leveling. These are pour and let dry materials that will automagically create a level area to work on top of, and range in price from "ouch" to "you've got to be kidding!" (Keep in mind, I'm cheap. Not frugal. Cheap.)

There are a few drawbacks to these products. First, if you have any cracks in the floor, this will go down those cracks and end up making them wider. Second, if your floor was using that slope to create drainage, you have now eliminated that function, and need to keep your eye on moisture buildup. (see first point about cracks in floor widening.) Third, if you do not put up some barrier, such as a 2x4 stringer, and caulk the lower edge (or silicone, whatever) you will have this stuff just run down the slope until it gets to either your drain, sump, or cracks. While it might not be a bad idea to level a certain area for specific purposes (and perhaps limited areas for specific needs / tools), this approach can lead to more headaches down the road. Fourth, this is not a finished floor then. You will then need to proceed to finishing, including sealing and adding a surface that you can use. There are low traffic options, high traffic options, and even options to handle low traffic but high weight. (Heavy tools or benches, anybody?)

In the end, I opted not to use these products, and simply deal with the floor as it was. I simply adjusted the leveling feet on my tools, and coped with an uneven floor to walk from point a to point b. I did add a roll-up foam mat to my primary working area, more for my foot comfort than any leveling properties. The biggest factor in my decision was price, but a close second was the fact that the usable space, floor to ceiling, would have been reduced due to the process and requirements of adding a floor treatment. Even a couple of inches worth of material would have made the basement unusable.

I did not intend to hijack any threads, and I admit I do not have product training or certified knowledge relating to this. If your floor does not have any cracks, it might not be a bad option. But you certainly need to be careful when applying this. Some of the materials in some of the products are hazardous to human type creatures until they have cured. Ask lots of questions. They can only help.

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