pghmyn Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 I've read a previous thread on here about finishing Maple, and I see that it says to use a shellac sealer. What does this product do to the wood? Also, the next step in his process is to the a gel stain from general finishes. So, if I seal the wood, I can use this stain in any color I want and it will come out fine (hypothetically)? It is coming time to finish the entertainment stand and my client wants it to be a little darker than just a clear coat. How can I achieve the best results possible for Maple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillaume Breton Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 i'm not quite sure but i will risk an answer. The sealer might have to do with some type of wood absorbing more stain in some areas than other. it is called "blushing" or "blotching" in english if i remember correctly. If you seal with 1 coat of shellac it will help the stain get absorbed evenly on your piece. If you then use a gel stain, which tends to stay more at the surface of the wood, you double your chances to avoid blushing. Some wood like pine or birch tend to blush. I'm not sure about hard maple. The color should be fine if you only apply a thin seal coat. If you spray your project or oil it you could always apply some dye into the lacquer or oil/varnish blend directly. there are many ways to achieve what you want to do. Make sure you chose a compatible dye if you do that. here is a nice video from Marc on the subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I have another question which I never seem to get right. How to I clean all the fine dust off the surface prior to finishing? Are there any tricks other than vacuuming and wiping with a dry cloth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris H Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I reccomend not wiping with a dry cloth. I typically favor a cloth dampened with mineral spirits because it will evaporate in minutes, instead of being absorbed into the wood like water will. The dry cloth wiping will only remove the large debris, the small stuff will catch into the pores of the wood. The wet cloth will grab and hold onto the finer dust you don't see, but you would feel. As for acheiving a slightly darker coloring, I would reccomend you look into a product called "Danish Oil". It can be found at most big box hardware stores. There are a couple of different tints, but I always use the "Natural". It will darken the wood and help even future finish coats. I typically don't stain after danish oil, but that is just a preference thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatworks Today Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I have another question which I never seem to get right. How to I clean all the fine dust off the surface prior to finishing? Are there any tricks other than vacuuming and wiping with a dry cloth? I like to use compressed air.. I just make sure to do this outside (away from the finishing area ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillaume Breton Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 vacuming while rubbing the piece with your hand, and vacuming your hand also works really well. it will remove more dust than compressed air alone. all the suggestions here so far are great. Maple is not an open pore wood so its pretty easy to clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I reccomend not wiping with a dry cloth. I typically favor a cloth dampened with mineral spirits because it will evaporate in minutes, instead of being absorbed into the wood like water will. The dry cloth wiping will only remove the large debris, the small stuff will catch into the pores of the wood. The wet cloth will grab and hold onto the finer dust you don't see, but you would feel. As for acheiving a slightly darker coloring, I would reccomend you look into a product called "Danish Oil". It can be found at most big box hardware stores. There are a couple of different tints, but I always use the "Natural". It will darken the wood and help even future finish coats. I typically don't stain after danish oil, but that is just a preference thing. I will probably go with this method. But I have never used mineral spirits before. Is that the actual name, or a generalized name for several kinds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted November 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 I played around with a few cans of stuff I had in the basement and here are the results of just one rub on coat. From left to right: - Tung Oil - Plain Polyurethane - Pecan Gloss Stain - Regular Shellac Then in the front is the "before" piece of wood with no stain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Pants Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Actual name, you can get a can at your local home center. It's also the thinner for varnish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_in_SD Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Good luck. Maple is very hard to color unless you are spraying a toner (tinted finish like lacquer), I've seen finish schedules for maple that included using dyes rather than stains. I think even with a sealer it will be difficult to get a good result with a gel stain. Seems like gel stain on maple, already a subdued figure, will be even more subdued given the blocking effects of a stain which is why a dye might be a better choice. Reminds me of a story -- many years ago (before woodworking) we hired a company to do cabinet refacing of our kitchen. We did not like the stock natural maple so we asked them to color a sample door for us. What they brought was laughable -- they wiped some stain on maple door and presented us this blotchy mess that I would have been embarrassed to present to a client. In the end we had them do the install unfinished and we hired a finishing professional who came in and sprayed a toner on our maple cabinets. He did a great job considering he used my garage to spray all doors / drawers and sprayed the face frames after installation. Back then, I did not have enough understanding to ask what he used to finish. I suspect it was lacquer. It was long enough ago that using lacquer in California was OK -- now a days it would be water-bourne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted November 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 How about tung oil with the maple? How bad is the botching with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim0625 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 How about tung oil with the maple? How bad is the botching with that? I don't get boching with tung oil on maple. It's pretty consistent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim0625 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I reccomend not wiping with a dry cloth. I typically favor a cloth dampened with mineral spirits because it will evaporate in minutes, instead of being absorbed into the wood like water will. The dry cloth wiping will only remove the large debris, the small stuff will catch into the pores of the wood. The wet cloth will grab and hold onto the finer dust you don't see, but you would feel. As for acheiving a slightly darker coloring, I would reccomend you look into a product called "Danish Oil". It can be found at most big box hardware stores. There are a couple of different tints, but I always use the "Natural". It will darken the wood and help even future finish coats. I typically don't stain after danish oil, but that is just a preference thing. Chris, would lacquer thinner dry 'cleaner' than MS? I typically use it because MS has a slightly oily feel....not much difference....but just a little? The LT cleans all dust off and I think just a little cleaner. No real data to back up what I'm saying....but definitely, I wouldn't wipe it with water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris H Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Chris, would lacquer thinner dry 'cleaner' than MS? I typically use it because MS has a slightly oily feel....not much difference....but just a little? The LT cleans all dust off and I think just a little cleaner. No real data to back up what I'm saying....but definitely, I wouldn't wipe it with water. Honestly, I have used both Lacquer Thinner and Mineral Spirits. I have a basement shop, and I find Lacquer thinner to be more unpleasant to smell. Both are stinky, but I find MS to be less. I have never noticed an oily residue from MS, but I can't say for sure one way or the other. If memory serves me correctly MS is cheaper than LT too. I would stay away from blowing it with a compressor. It doesn't clean up the dust, just shoots it into the air. That can be a health risk, and its likely to settle back onto your work, or another part of the shop. If you prefer air instead of a cloth, be sure to use a vac/DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim0625 Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 Honestly, I have used both Lacquer Thinner and Mineral Spirits. I have a basement shop, and I find Lacquer thinner to be more unpleasant to smell. Both are stinky, but I find MS to be less. I have never noticed an oily residue from MS, but I can't say for sure one way or the other. If memory serves me correctly MS is cheaper than LT too. I would stay away from blowing it with a compressor. It doesn't clean up the dust, just shoots it into the air. That can be a health risk, and its likely to settle back onto your work, or another part of the shop. If you prefer air instead of a cloth, be sure to use a vac/DC. Respirator for $20.......I'm using it more and more. Can't EVEN SMELL lacquer thinner through it. Your basement may be different than my 2 car garage with a large front door and an entrance style back door as far as ventilation. I use the thinner, keep the respirator on for another few minutes and the smell has dissipated. I'm also wearing it when I sand exotic woods to avoid the toxins. Chris, you and I were talking with another guy about dust collection. Being safe is not that expensive if you do it right. Nice hearing protection is$25, safety glasses are $2, face shieldsare $14, push sticks can be made, push blocks are cheap or easily made and the list goes on. I can show you gruesome pictures of where I did DUMMY MOVES (plural) and it cost me ER visits (plural again). I'm tired of ERs, stitches, and deductibles.....exiting soapbox....SO pghmyn (apologize for the rabbit trail).....I put my respirator on, wipe with lacquer thinner, and apply finish or then glue oily woods together. I know the wood is dust free, oil free, and the thinner has dissipated in minutes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris H Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 I will have to look into a new respirator. I have a 3m respirator I got from the local big box store for $20-$30 (Looks almost identical to the linked mask), and I have the upgraded cartridges (~$15) that claim to protect against finer particles and most noxious gases. I definatley still smell just about everything though. I wear the respirator pretty much full time (except when I have the face shield on). I wonder if it isn't doing as much good as I was expecting. I didn't think they covered up most smells, so I never thought too much about it. Definatley worth some investigation. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egraff Posted November 28, 2012 Report Share Posted November 28, 2012 Two things: First, another option for the wiping is to use a "tack cloth"... a very sticky cloth that you can get at any big box store. They pick up superfine dust very well before finishing a piece. Second, Chris, have you performed a "fit test" for your respirator? When I bought my respirator (also 3M) I bought a medium size (7502). It felt totally comfortable, but when I did a fit test, I immediately saw that it didn't fit properly at all. I exchanged it for a large (7503), which now fits me perfectly, and I too cannot smell any odors through it (using the vapor cartridges). Best, EG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris H Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 Second, Chris, have you performed a "fit test" for your respirator? I have not heard of a "Fit Test" before, and I believe the mask is sold as a "universal" size. I googled it and found this from 3M http://solutions.3m....piratorFitTest/ I have to say that is just not reasonable imo for a hobbyist. Is there another method of doing this that doesn't require special equipment? $200 test kit for a $30 mask seems silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 To test the fit or just making sure the mask is tight enough or positioned on your face well enough. I put the heel of the palm of my hand over the exhaust valve and blow out through my nose. A tight fit is the mask puffing up with air, no air leaking around your face and mask. Sometimes depending on your head position while spraying, typically head down chin close to your chest. Your mask may not be as tight to your face. I will simply, in those positions, use my free had a support the mask tight to my face or push my chin out forward. I find this more with the 3m disposable mask that have the hard plastic "frame" to it. Those good spray mask from the "good old days" were made entirely of rubber and seemed to stay on your face better in all positions. Thats just me!!! If your smelling what your working with...ya may want to test the fit of the mask. -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egraff Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Chris, Ace beat me to it, but yes - that's exactly how to perform a fit test!!! No need for the fancy kit <smile> In addition to the test that Ace describes (called a positive pressure fit test), I suggest that you also try a negative pressure fit test. To do this, remove all filters or vapor cartridges from the mask, leaving the two round holes exposed through which air enters. Cover each hole with the flat part of your palm, and inhale. If air enters the mask from anywhere around your face, you have failed the test. A properly fitting mask should pass both of these tests with no problem. As I said, the first mask I bought (3M 7502) was too small and failed both tests. Therefore, I replaced it with the large size (3M 7503) and now everything works perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkp619 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Will chime in as I've been doing a ton of maple staining recently. Don't have a ton to ad from the video posted about but I can say for a fact that shellac does a great job of stopping the blochiness but 2 things. 1. be sure to cut the shellac. If you don't it will almost completely seal the wood not allowing for any staining to take place. 2. Also realize that the shellac (even cut) seals the wood so whatever stain you are using will come out lighter in color as the wood will not absorb as much stain. I used probably 20 different test piece tell I got the color I wanted. Also Mineral Spirits works great for cleaning the wood. Just give it a few mins to dry before staining. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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