Can Tile and Wood Play Nice Together?

[rmac]

I've been talking for nearly a year about making a new top for my dining room table. A number of "but firsts" have been resolved, and I'm ready (I think) to actually do something about it.

I'd like to make the top out of wood, but with a large section in the middle inlaid with ceramic tile or granite or something so that it can be used for hot serving dishes and such without messing around with hot pads or trivets. I'd also like the surface of the tile to be flush with the surface of the wood.

The problem is wood movement. If the wood expands and shrinks as shown by the big red arrow, but the tile doesn't, it seems like I need some kind of flexible connection between the tile and the wood. The only thing I've thought of so far that seems reasonable is to start with a stable substrate made of plywood or MDF and then surround the tile with some sort of wood veneer instead of using solid wood. I don't especially like that idea because I would like to have enough wood thickness available for a future sanding/refinishing if needed.

Any hints?

Thanks,

-- Russ

[jHop]

The only thing I can think of is to use the flexible web mesh backing that is sold in the BORG shower isles. This creates the backing that the tiles stick to with the mastick, but still allows the base below it to move.

However, every time I've seen it used, it has been installed over plywood.

I'd assume that the above drawing can still be brought to fruition by doing a frame and panel approach to the table. Those with more experience should probably step forward now and correct me.

[jimbofoxman]

Having layed quite a few houses of tile, I would think you'd almost want to do the tiling first, then build whatever frame around it so you good adjust somehow (hidden) for the tile and grout thickness. But that's just me thinking quickly about it.

[Eric.]

The FWW guys talked about tile and wood in one of their Shop Talk Live podcasts...maybe episode 3 or 4? I wasn't paying close attention because incorporating tile isn't on my radar right now, but they had some tips. Using unsanded grout, and another kind of grout (maybe silicon based?) that has some give to accommodate the wood movement. Other tips about substrates, adhesives and finishing, if I remember correctly.

[Dave H]

What about makeing the tiled area floating, and leave a small gap for a flexable caulk joint or just a gap.

[duckkisser]

you could make it a butcher block counter top and then rout a depression in the top. or get rid of the idea of having it flush an make a floating top where the tile sits in a grove that you route out ahead of time like a door pannel.

[pghmyn]

I've seen that exact thing on Holmes on Homes. He put a giant tile inlay in a engineered wood floor. Only thing he did different was to use color matching caulk around the tiles where they meet the wood.

[Dyami Plotke]

I would recommend a good caulk joint between the tile and wood. Also, if you're expecting a lot of movement, try to build the wooden portion to minimize it. Maybe have the tile run the length of the table, secure the wood near the tile & let it float at the outside edge.

[Chris H]

Caulking the outside grout lines is the key. Don't use grout, but instead go to your local home center, and they will have pre-colored silicone caulk. This is what you use in showers and stuff. The thought is that the objects around the tile with expand and contrast differently so the caulk will absorb the shift. I reccomend you buy a small bag of the grout when you get a tube or two of caulk. You will want grout on the inside grid lines since it will be far more heat tolerant than the silicone will (also easier to clean).

I would also reccomend that you carve out the section that will be tiled (router works well for this) and dig deep enough to allow for a sheet of hardi-backer 1/4" (cement board) that you will mortar the tiles too. This way when the wood shifts, the tiles will not move in correlation to one another, but instead the table will shift around the cut out. Give yourself a good 3/16-1/4 gap around the cement board and wood on the sides or the wood could buckle the cement board.

If you are feeling adventerous, don't adhere the cement board to the table. You can easily pull the caulk from the edges and replace/swap out the tile center for something different as you see fit.

Good Luck, its a great project!

[TRBaker]

I made a nice mahogany sideboard for my wife and inlaid marble in the top for hot dishes. All I did was make the openings 16th inch bigger than the marble and dropped it in. It isn't glued or grouted in because I have wood separating each piece.

[wdwerker]

I would use a good stable ply like Baltic birch under the tiled area with tile backer board on top of it, then the tile or granite. Miter or wrap a wood frame around it. Grout the field of tile and use Lexcel clear caulk between the wood and tile. Lexcel is clearer than silicone and it will never pull loose. It is a sort of rubber that takes a week or so to cure. Been using it for over 20 years. Remains flexible. I use it to glue glass into china cabinet doors with no rattles at all. Finish the wood first if you like. 1/16 th gap is plenty. Mineral spirits to clean up.

You can screw the plywood to your solid wood frame. Just make sure the boards have a long grain edge on all 4 sides of the tile.

Miter or butt joints with biscuits, dominos, or mortice and tenon .

[rmac]

Wow! Thanks for all the hints so far ... especially about the various materials available. I didn't know much other than "grout" before starting this thread.

-- Russ

[sjeff70]

I've seen that exact thing on Holmes on Homes. He put a giant tile inlay in a engineered wood floor. Only thing he did different was to use color matching caulk around the tiles where they meet the wood.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Your memory is better for detail than mine.

I'm a huge fan of Mike Holmes. Mike has been using a product called Ditra for years under tile because of its stability. If grout cracks it will be unsightly in the middle of a kitchen table. On the other hand you will not be standing on it. Regardless, grout will not crack under Ditra. It can be found at Home Depot:

http://www.schluter.com/6_1_ditra.aspx

For the tile border/between the tile and wood you might try this, as it's a nice transition piece. I've seen it at Home Depot:

http://www.schluter..../tile_trim.aspx

Whatever system you use I would do a small table top mock up first to test whatever system you choose.

[Daniel Berg]

My father in law made their family dinner table using this idea. He used plywood as the "underlayment" and then regular tile grout in-betwwen the tiles after he set them. All said and done it worked perfectly, with the leaves it can sit 12. So with our large family it was awesome. So instead of using trivets we would just set it on the tiles. If I remember the dimensions correctly it is 4 tiles wide by 3 tiles long with each tile 4" by 4". Then their was a "boarder" around them that was about 4 inchs wide. I know my description is probably horid so I appologize. When I think about it I'll post a couple of pictures of it.

[Chris H]

Just for some clarity, Mike Holmes uses the Ditra, but it isn't solely for stability, it's primary function is water proofing. I wouldn't use it for a table application because of cost, and no risk of water damage since excess water would just fall through to the floor, and be easily cleaned up. On floors or showers the Ditra is on par with the cost of cement board and rubber membrane (but saves in labor), so its a great solution there.

@wdwerker: The advantage to the silicone caulk vs another plyable substance, like lexcel, is that it is pre-colored to match the grout perfectly, so your "caulkline" just blend into the tile patern like the grout does.

[ChetlovesMer]

I made a nice mahogany sideboard for my wife and inlaid marble in the top for hot dishes. All I did was make the openings 16th inch bigger than the marble and dropped it in. It isn't glued or grouted in because I have wood separating each piece.

I did this for a table I built once. It was solid walnut but done the same way. The table had 6 13x13" tiles built into the top. 1/16 of an inch is about all you need, but the way I did it was to build it in the winter dead tight and then in the summer the opening expanded to leave an almost non-noticable gap.

What's important to remember is that wood expandes across the grain not with the grain. What that means is a 2X4 cut to 8 feet will be 8 feet long all year, but the 1-1/2x3-1/2 will vary depending on the season. As a rule the wood swells in the winter and shrinks in the summer. That is why a drawer will often stick in the summer and could be free in the winter. The carcus has more material and therefore shrinks more and then it "grabs" the drawer which has less material and therefore shrinks less. Of course if you build your carcus out of plywood that changes everything.

Perhaps one of the members of this forum can suggest a really good resource on the subject. All of my information comes from this old dude who taught me how to make raised panel doors. But it seems like there should be a difinitive resource out there on this subject... Not that there's anything wrong with just learning it from "some old dude".