Absolute beginner, becoming frustrated

[BDY33]

Hi all,

 

I hope this won't come across too negatively, I am looking for encouragement and strategy to overcome some frustrations. I do not mean this as pessimistically as it may sound.

 

I have wanted to get into woodworking my whole life, and at 40 with the help of a very supportive wife and family I have begun to do so in a corner of our small garage. So far I built a workbench (not a woodworkers bench, just a run of the mill garage workbench), which is very ugly but sturdy - not easy to do without already having a workbench! - an end table with drawer for our living room, and a stand for our girl's digital piano. They have all turned out well, but they don't really encompass any amount of actual woodworking skill - just cheap "whitewood" from Lowe's, cut crookedly with a cicrular saw, attached with pocketholes. It has definitely gotten me interested in learning more, and I have a ton of projects around the house I want to do. So I've been reading several books, reading lots on forums like this one, and have taken a 101 class from the local Woodcraft store.

 

So now it seems like in order to actually progress, I am going to need at a minimum a table saw. Every single book, plan, and TV show I watch, with the exception of the hardcore handmade guys, assumes you will have a table saw. So I start planning on how to save up around $500 for a decent Bosch or DeWalt model.

 

Now for the wood itself, I can either pay around $15-20 per bf for red oak at Lowes/HD, or I can get roughsawn lumber locally for closer to $3 per bf. Obviously I want to do the latter! But then, I would need a jointer and planer. OK, I think I can see how I can find another $500 for a Jet 10" jointer/planer (which already is a little dubious, reviews are all over the place for that).

 

So, $1000 and pretty much cramped into my 1/3 of the 2 car garage, doable. But I guess I am going to need an air solution, I already have been coughing more than normal from just 2-3 small projects. So, maybe $200 for a cheapo from HF? OK, maybe I can swing that. But wait, lots of folks saying that is inadequate. OK, need to add air cleaners. Those cost - holy cow, $600? And really, if you care about your and your family's health, you should check out Bill Pentz's site and get one of his cyclone machines. Only $1600! Well you can get a kit for $600, and just add the motor for another $400, plus all the other parts....

 

And this is just the bare minimum. I probably don't even have room for stuff like a bandsaw or drill press, etc.

 

So all of a sudden it seems ridiculously impossible and like I should just forget about it. Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm overthinking this. Can someone please help me out of this and explain how to get started in a more reasonable fashion?

 

Thanks for any help.

[dwacker]

As a hobby you picked an expensive one that is true. It doesnt have to happen over night nor do you have to listen to all the arm chair woodworkers all over the internet. Use some common sense and buy what you can afford. A shop vac works just fine most of the time with smaller tools, just add a drywall bag and it will collect the fines just like an expensive collector. Move outside when you can to keep dust out of the house. Just use some common sense.

Don

[RJsumthn]

I am in the same position as you. I did pick up the Porter Cable Portable Table Saw from Lowes for $300 plus $40 for a new blade. This has been a good saw so far and would recommend it for a beginner. As with the Jointer and Planer I went to the local antique mall and got a Stanley #4 and Sargent #5 (smoother and jack planes) for $30 each. With very little practice I was able to get flat and square boards. With the planes you do need to find a sharpening system and the scary sharp method will work well with minimal start up cost. However, I invested in a DMT Dia-Sharp Extra course diamond plate (i use this for lapping the water stone) and a King 1000/6000 grit water stone. That will cost about $120 but will last a very long time and it can be used for other things like chisels and maybe even your wife's kitchen knives (it may help justify the purchase some). With hand planes the dust is minimal and with the table saw a shop vac will be adequate.

 

I do have intentions on getting a planer and jointer and all that fun stuff but it will be a long slow process but I can get just about everything done with what I have, it just takes a little bit longer.

[calmari]

I feel your pain, but don't let it affect your drive to want to work wood.  I started at the same point that you are at now, and while I'm still a beginner I've slowly managed to build up a decent kit of tools over the past couple of years.  I also started out in part of a garage and had to pack/un-pack everything when I wanted to build.  My table saw was the crappy $100 Ryobi portable from HD that (as I found out) didnt even cut square.  Yeah all that stuff is great, but you don't NEED it to get started, and especially not at that price point.  I don't know if you've watched any of Steve Ramsey's Woodworking for Mere Mortals videos over at http://www.woodworkingformeremortals.com/ , but Steve has put together some great stuff, without high-end equipment.

 

Unless you are doing all hand tool work, I think that a table saw is pretty important and very versatile.  You can get by with using a circular saw for many things, but the ultimately there are things you can't do.  My wife goes to Ana White's http://ana-white.com/  and likes a lot of her plans and the most high-tech tool she uses is a miter saw, so it can be done.  A few suggestions:

 

- Craigslist - Most of my tools I got off CL, stuff that was barely used for less than half the price of new.

- Dust collection -  Get a dust deputy (the basic model around $40 - just the cyclone) or build a Thein seperator and use a shop vac

- Go mobile - As you get tools build/buy mobile bases for them so that you can maybe move things out into the driveway

[jHop]

I know how you feel. 

 

Good news?  You're not as stuck as you think you are.

 

I've surfed the web several times, and have found a few items that I've posted here that might help you, but I'll summarize.  (And don't think I'm the final word on the subject; I'm barely farther along the road than you are.)  I don't have a table saw either.  I've been finding that there are only a few reasons to get one, even a contractor or benchtop model, and I'm not that motivated to need one.  I find most of what I want to do can be done by the band saw, which is a far more versatile option.  Dadoes obviously become a problem, but a hand-held router answers this option without complaints.  While it would be nice to have a dedicated router table, a simple wood-based table/platform that can be set up on the bench you already have will fill this hole - and you can detatch the router when you're done so you can put it away.

 

I agree that a planer (or planer jointer combo) unit will help with the lumber costs.  While you are learning, and getting better, and deciding which direction you want to go in, don't sweat not having it.  Yes, I have a DW735, and yes, I paid about $600 for it.  I also bought it on layaway, so I could spread the costs out over about 6 months, and I've used it less than a handfull of times.  While you are certainly paying more for the lumber from the Box Stores, you are getting something that cannot be easily overlooked: you are getting a level of comfort that there will be someone around that can talk about a project in wood you have a question on.  Most likely, someone will point you to a better source, or provide a tip in selecting better material, but you would not have found this option if you had bypassed the box store altogether.

 

I've made a few projects from "whitewood" myself, and I've learned some things that I appreciate, and some that I wish I had learned before.  One thing I've noticed is the price difference between whitewood and pine - around here, the material seems to be the same, yet the cost is not.  This is not to say they are equal, just an observation on price.

 

Yes, you could opt for a dust collector.  You could also opt for a Jet air filtration unit.  Or, you could go with a $20 box fan (that you probably already have) and a couple of air filters (I've seen ones the right size between $1 and $5 each) and a roll of duct tape.  This will not get everything, so spend some money on a respirator.  Marc has a couple of videos and posts mentioning what he uses, and his methodology and explanations of what he does with the respirator pads.  They aren't cheap (I consider a $5 filter expensive), but I'd gladly pay for the mental relief knowing my lungs are more protected.  (I'm of the opinion nothing will ever be 100 percent protected.  Ever.  But I'm comfortable accepting 95 percent as perfection.  If the respirator increases my lung safety by even one percentage point, I'm happy.)

 

As for the size of the shop, pshaw.  Lots of folks make lots of furniture out of small areas.  I purchased a special issue magazine from the store two months ago, showing a variety of wood shops from a small shed to a large building.  Go with what you need, not what you want.  Eventually, you will find where you need to expand.

 

If it was my situation... I'd make a saw bench.  Yes, they are primarily used for cutting material by hand.  But you can still use a circular saw on one, and potentially turn it into a secondary bench you can tuck away for smaller tasks.  The blog Half-Inch Shy has many great projects.  I'm a little behind (just like my homework), but I started visiting because of a tilt-top work cabinet.  This can expand the space you have by putting two tools into the same space in a small shop.  I'd consider getting a bench-top drill press (You can find one around $200 used) and putting it into this cabinet, built for maybe $100 with parts from the Box Store.

 

So now you're up to about $600 in spending.  (Materials for saw bench, flip top bench/cabinet, router, respirator, respirator cartridges/pads, shop vac - sorry, forgot to mention that one earlier - and duct tape.  And maybe a used drill press.)  Then worry about the larger tools.

[Chris H]

Don says it well.

 

Forums like this one are great at bringing together folks of all different backgrounds.  This is a great, but all advise is based on our individual experiences and economical situations.  Woodworking is a terrible hobby if a primary goal is short term satisfaction at a low cost. I would relate woodworking to golf...and I am not great at either.  Their both expensive, and no matter how good you get, you will almost always wish you were better. 

 

As for the economics, for a hobbyist, I find it best to consider everything I have built for personal or family use as something I would have bought at retail prices had I not built it.  Is that an stretch, sure, but its the best way I can justify the huge investment I have made into the hobby.  For example, a non-woodworker would likely go to a store like "Ashley Furniture" and be smitten with a $2500 particle board/plywood bedroom set.  A woodworker can't help but think there would only be $700-$1000 worth of materials to build that all from hardwood.  Make it myself, and I save at least $1500 and get equal or better quality.  (hobbyists quickly ignore the labor peice!)  So all the sudden a $500 Table saw, $500 Miter saw, and $500 planer seem like a reasonable expense to incur. 

 

Every hobbyist has their own list of must have tools.  Personally, I would say priority one is a miter saw.  It doesn't have to be a FT, but I would stay away from big box store brands.  Go DeWalt or better if you can afford it.  I know I wish I would have.  Next would be a table saw.  This is an area I am weak in the advise department, because I have a garbage table saw, and I know I should cough up the cash for a good one.  These two are the staple to most furniture builds. 

 

The next two I would reccomend is a router, and planer.  I have used many different planers, but only ever owned the DeWalt DW735.  That's $550-600 I have never missed.  Your lumber savings will pay for the planer in just a few projects.  Will pay more for pine fromt he big box stores than you will for domestic hardwoods at a wholesaler/mill.  If you have ever bought hardwood from a retailer, you will feel like you've been kicked in the biscuits when you realize how much markup you've paid. 

 

The router is a black hole of always wanting more, and better.  Depending on your projects a big box brand will really do most things adequatley.  There are a few, Porter Cable and DeWalt that are pretty good value models for the price that excel at some of the finer woodworking taskes. 

 

One thing I have come to realize is that there are tools designed for carpentry, and tools designed for fine woodworking.   Desiding where you think you will focus will save a lot of stress and money in the long run.

[mikem]

One area, and I made this mistake myself, that I try to steer others away from, is getting a "starter" table saw.  These being the aluminum top, direct drive, plastic bodied saws.  For home improvement work, these are okay, but as you get to doing more precise work, and as these saw become less precise, you will start to get even more frustrated.  I had a high-priced craftsman jobsite saw a number of years ago, that fit the above category, and got extremely frustrated with it.

 

What I ended up doing was going to craigslist and bought an older craftsman contractor saw (a 113 series) (meaning cast iron top, metal body, belt driven motor) for $100.  I put on a new fence, and built new wings for it.  This has proven to be a very good saw for me, and still have less money in it then I did with my first TS. While it is bigger and heavier, there are many wheel bases that work well with it and it can easily be moved out of the way.

 

Once you have a good TS in your shop, you will find you can go much further with woodworking then you can ever imagine.

[mikem]

Also saw some of the comments about the planers & jointers.  First skip the Jet combo you mentioned.  The tables are far too short for them to be effective for anything other than small parts.  I bought the Dewalt 734, which in the reviews is pretty much in a dead heat with the 735.  I have been VERY happy with the 734, and it can be $200 less in cost then the 735.  You can get by without a jointer to start with.  You can skip plane (VERY light passes in the planer) to get you boards flatten (won't be as good as the jointer, but most likely flat enough for your first projects)  For edge jointing, get a #5 Jack Plane.  If you search around for them, you can get an old Bailey for $30.  It is easier then you think to get a good edge with a decent hand plane.

[BDY33]

Wow! Thank you all a lot for such encouraging and thoughtful responses. I was afraid I was going to get blasted for being a dumb newbie and told to take a hike.... I understand the economics, but was pretty well prepared for the long slow path until I started reading about dust collection, which landed me on Bill Pentz's site, and that was like the straw that broke the camel's back and I kind of fell apart.

 

I will certainly see if I can map out a way ahead using bits and pieces from everyone's responses. I think the first step I need to make is dust collection - right now I have nothing except a mask. I see now that that is definitely inadequate. I'll look into a shop vac and jHop's other suggestions in that area first.

 

I see a lot of you are recommending using a planer without a jointer, but most places and the Woodcraft class all claim that is a big no-no since you are just putting a smooth face on potentially bent, bowed boards. Are you guys saying that for non-commercial stuff it's ok to do that?

 

I scour craigslist daily, and picked up about $450 worth of Jorgenson wood clamps and a couple pipe clamps for $20 yesterday. But so far nothing in the table saw / planer area. Will keep up the vigil

[mds2]

Woodworking is very expensive as you have found out.  My advise, keep an eye out for auctions.  I've bought a good chunk of my tools at auction and saved a bunch of money.  

[dwacker]

Wow! Thank you all a lot for such encouraging and thoughtful responses. I was afraid I was going to get blasted for being a dumb newbie and told to take a hike.... I understand the economics, but was pretty well prepared for the long slow path until I started reading about dust collection, which landed me on Bill Pentz's site, and that was like the straw that broke the camel's back and I kind of fell apart.

 

 

I see a lot of you are recommending using a planer without a jointer, but most places and the Woodcraft class all claim that is a big no-no since you are just putting a smooth face on potentially bent, bowed boards. Are you guys saying that for non-commercial stuff it's ok to do that?

 

I scour craigslist daily, and picked up about $450 worth of Jorgenson wood clamps and a couple pipe clamps for $20 yesterday. But so far nothing in the table saw / planer area. Will keep up the vigil

Bills site is a bit overwhelming. I would suggest a jointer. Jointers are really a non commercial or small shop machine. You will need to have something for the planer to reference off of and thats where the jointer comes into play. You could fake it other ways but even a 6" craigslist special is worth its weight.

Don

[jHop]

Bills site is a bit overwhelming. I would suggest a jointer. Jointers are really a non commercial or small shop machine. You will need to have something for the planer to reference off of and thats where the jointer comes into play. You could fake it other ways but even a 6" craigslist special is worth its weight.

Don

 

 

I agree the site is overwhelming.  It tends to rely on an overload of expertise to convince you to go "full bore" and get his practice, if not his products.  It still is a valid argument, but sometimes it's necessary to step back and say "what can I do with my budget?"

 

As for the jointer, I'd argue (respectfully, mind you) it is possible to delay this step while the budget recovers.  A router or table saw can get perpendicular edges once the faces have been planed flat with the planer.  (if the project board is narrow enough, the planer can double as the jointer with a sled/jig.) 

 

I'm not saying a jointer is not worth it's weight.  But if the budget only allows for so much, I'd suggest getting the planer first.  (even though it's the more expensive of the two, for my market.)

[mikem]

BDY, you won't be blasted here.  Most of us are hobbyist as well, and have felt a lot of the same frustrations you are experiencing.  You won't get a response of "go google it" or "do a search" here. 

 

The best advice I can give you as you buy tools, is know the tool you are buying.  It is all well and good to attempt to "buy it once" and most of us WANT to do that, but many of us just don't have the money aside to accomplish that, so we need to climb that upgrade ladder.  So, research every machine you are considering buying.  Look at the reviews out there.  Ask for people's opinions here and other woodworking forums.  Get to know what the tool is capable of, and what it isn't capable.  For example, a small 10" Ryobi band saw will do fine cutting curves in 3/4" stock.  It probably will not work well in a resaw function, and other straight cuts may be problematic.

 

It is an expensive hobby, but there are always opportunities to save costs while getting going.

 

Most important, be patient with yourself, and have fun!

[dwacker]

There was a guy that hung out on all the web forums a few years ago that went by the name Dave in Cairns. His website is down so I dont know what happened to him. He also did the somewhat famous Tsunami hope chest a few years ago. I wish his site was up and running. The guy was a great example of what you could do with very little, the center of his shop was a ryobi table saw and a bunch of what most would consider junk hand tools. Ive never seen another woodworker that could match his work.

I guess the point is you can get by with very little if you just learn how to use the tools. Enjoy the hobby and make sawdust the tools will come.

Don

[duckkisser]

every one has given you the advice you need  here is mine. 

 

Figure out what you want to make first then buy the tools you need for that project or that field of wood working.  if you dont want to fill a huge space and make furniture you can become a wood turner.  for that you realy only need bandsaw, jointer, and lathe. these can fit in a corner of your garage then you can turn firewood or logs from the neighborhood.    if you want  to do carving work then you dont even need a space of tools just a box to store everthing a comfey chair, and table.  alot of carver only use a boy scout knife and a broom to clean up there mess. 

 

craigs list is a great source of tools i went and virtualy shoped on there recently for every major tool and ended up being around 3k for everything.  and remember as a hobiest you dont need a 10" jointer that is a masive machine.  a 6" is fine for a hobbiest maybe 8" if you plan on making furniture.  i would sugest that you get a table saw, jointer, planer, bandsaw, grinders , router, jigsaw. drill press, random orbital sander, upright sander, miter saw.

[RenaissanceWW]

This hurts my OCD to say this but skip the dust collector and air cleaner for now and buy a respirator.  Nothing protects you better than the stuff you wear.  It has been years since I bought one but I seem to remember I paid like $40 for the mask and filters.  I've had to buy more filters since then obviously but those are a trifle. 

 

Second, I built several built in bookcases, 3 freestanding cabinets, a Windsor chair (from a kit), a slew of boxes, and every cabinet in my shop before I ever got a table saw and jointer/planer.  I used my circ saw and a straight edge for the basic cuts and a hand held router and a few bits for all the joinery.  I feel like this has been said already, but I always tell new guys to focus on the next 2-3 projects they want to make and come up with solutions for those builds.  Maybe you reward yourself with a new tool after each build. 

 

Just keep asking questions here and this group will set you straight.

[G S Haydon]

Hi BDY33,

 

I really like how enthusiastic you are. My advice would be;

 

• Buy some reasonable quality hand tools. Don't spend a fortune just yet, you had to work hard to earn your money don't waste it 
• Rather than investing in a jointer look to buy prepared timber on your first projects from a store or a local joiner. You can then cut this to size with you hand tools.
• Don't overload on reading too much yet. Read about the methods you need to use on you first item 
• Practice cutting joints on some cheap or scrap timber. Most joinery books have a section on joints and tools. Use your tools to practice those simple joints.
• Once you feel you can cut some joints pick a really simple project to start with, something like some shelving or a storage box.

Really don't worry if things don't come right straight away. Nobody picks up tools and makes a masterpiece straight away. By doing something wrong you learn about avoiding the the problem in the future. "The person who never made a mistake never made anything"

 

Keep us updated on your progress and purchases.

[TheFatBaron]

This hurts my OCD to say this but skip the dust collector and air cleaner for now and buy a respirator.  Nothing protects you better than the stuff you wear.  It has been years since I bought one but I seem to remember I paid like $40 for the mask and filters.  I've had to buy more filters since then obviously but those are a trifle. 

 

I'll second this. Between this and a shop vac with a decent filter (Ridgid's shop vacs hook up to a shocking variety of tools, especially if you're will to get creative) you'll deal with a lot of your dust problems. Also - if you notice a lot of fine dust settling afterwards, consider a DIY air cleaner. Get a box fan and zip tie a good pleated furnace filter to it. Let it run for 30 minutes after you're done working. If you only have smaller fans, you'll just need to get creative. Right now, I have a 2 8" fans (nice strong ones) sitting inside a box that came from amazon with the top and bottom opened up, and a filter on each side. Voila! Instant air filtration. 

 

Otherwise... I feel your pain with the expensive clean vs cheap rough lumber, but definitely ask your rough lumber source if they can at least get you square on 2 sides. Also, consider checking for community woodshops or local woodworking groups (or even a local community college). I only have a basement to work in, so I don't have room for many tools, so I take full advantage of my shop membership and plan ahead for things like jointing & planing wood or repetitive tablesaw cuts. Even paying hourly or daily, it'd take a lot of time to equal the cost of having a purpose-built shop built, much less populated with high quality tools.

[thewoodwhisperer]

Amazing advice in this thread already. The way this is headed, I might have to make this an official sticky post!

 

One piece of advice I'll throw in here that might be helpful when selecting your tools is to not focus too much on brands. Spend enough time in forums and watching podcasts, like mine, you might come away with a false impression that you simply can't get the job done without high-end stuff. That's simply not the case. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten comments on places like YouTube that say, "If I had a $400 router I could do that too!" Seriously? Yes Festool makes a kick-butt router, but at it's core, it's still a motor spinning a bit in circles and every brand of router does that much.

 

That's just one example but there are many we can talk about. Less expensive tools can certainly get the job done as long as you avoid the lemons. 

 

I occasionally try to do a video that shows a project being done with basic tools. Here's an example: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/low-entertainment-center-pt-1/

 

Hope it helps to inspire you. The last thing we want is for you to be stifled and discouraged.

[dwacker]

Amazing advice in this thread already. The way this is headed, I might have to make this an official sticky post!

 

I can't tell you how many times I have gotten comments on places like YouTube that say, "If I had a $400 router I could do that too!" Seriously? Yes Festool makes a kick-butt router, but at it's core, it's still a motor spinning a bit in circles and every brand of router does that much.

Are you sure, I've read that all those green tools were magic and the ts55 will change your life forever.

[JerrySats]

I can't add much to what everyone has said so far , I would suggest you check around for some local woodworkers that can give you some assistance to jump start your learning curve . This forum is a great place to hook up with locals . Don't fall into the trap of thinking you need the latest and best tools out there to get going .  When I started woodworking many years back I had very few tools and a table saw wasn't one of them . 

 

Your local lumber yard may offer milling options for you at a very fair price . They can take rough lumber and joint and flatten it for you .  You might want to add where your from to your profile to help in searching out locals .

 

 Regards

Jerry  

[Eric.]

Take a deep breath, sit down, contemplate.  This is a lifetime journey.  See your progress as the sum of countless little steps.  There are many, many more to come.  No need to rush. 

[Boatworks Today]

This hurts my OCD to say this but skip the dust collector and air cleaner for now and buy a respirator.  Nothing protects you better than the stuff you wear.  It has been years since I bought one but I seem to remember I paid like $40 for the mask and filters.  I've had to buy more filters since then obviously but those are a trifle. 

 

For getting started, a good mask like RWW mentions and a shop vac and you will be taken care of  (health wise)..  As others have mentioned, get the tools that you need for specific projects.  Don't overwhelm yourself with getting everything that you would LIKE to have, but rather what you need for particular projects.  Chances are there will be creative ways to use them that doesn't always seem initially apparent (allowing you to broaden your "project list").

 

As far as milling the lumber and the tools required to do that yourself, most lumber yards (the good ones) will final dimension your stock for a nominal fee.  It allows you to save quite a bit of $$ compared to buying from the big box stores and typically the quality is much better.  Also local sources are good doors to knock on.  A few times a year I have locals that ask me to mill some stock for them..  As long as they aren't expecting me to do it "right there and then", I am happy to do so. 

 

One good tip that works on me, a 12-pack of some tasty beer goes a long ways    That's typically a good payment at the end of a day!! 

 

Stick with it!! 

 

~Andy

[Dlhunter]

Are you sure, I've read that all those green tools were magic and the ts55 will change your life forever.

I don't know about the magic but the TS-55 changed my life forever. Of course I wouldn't recommend it to any one just entering the hobby even if they could afford it. I'm a firm believer in learning the hard way and then buying things to make your life easier.

I would recommend you don't buy anything just yet. Get good with what you have now. If all you have is a circular saw then make some super simple projects and get to where you can cut a straight line. Figure out how to use straight edges to help you. You can cut 3/4" dados with a circular saw if you have the time.

You really don't need much to make nice things. I picked up a hitachi table saw for $200 on sale at lowes 6 years ago and that's still the saw I use on every project. I will get a fancy cabinet saw eventually but the one I have does what I need it to. If it doesn't, well then I need to get creative. Which is the fun part of woodworking. I suggest building a tool cabinet for yourself. It could be a simple project and you don't have to worry about having to impress anyone with it so there shouldn't be any stress.

[dodgeram99]

My suggestion to you. Would be. Get a table saw. When you can. I would stay away from the job site models. I have a ridged 4512 and it is the best tool in my shop. But it took me over a year to get it. It is just as much as the PC and DeWalt models. But it is imo, so much better. And some times HD has it on sale. Then go with a miter saw then a router. After you have built a few small projects. Your conference and understanding for the craft will grow. As time goes on you will find out what works and what doesn't.
A sight to look at is grizley.com. They are a great sight and there tools are top quality. (Just my opinion).
As you desire growers so will your tools. If you can stay away from cheap tools. If I could get my money back on all the cheap tools I have bought. I would be 10k richer.