Erad Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Back story: I've been refinishing my bass guitar. I bought it used and the previous owner refinished it himself, and did a subpar job. The finish was tacky, and wrinkled. It would stick to my arm and pants when I would play the bass sitting down. So I decided to do my first ever refinish. I stripped the old finish off, realized that he had stained the Basswood a darker color. After many hours of sanding, and a bit of bleaching as well, I got it back to original basswood color. I then used Tasnfast water-soluble dyes to dye it a green/black burst. Now I'm done with all that, I'm starting to put the Deft Nitro finish on it. I did 2 light coats and then a 3rd heavy coat. I let that dry for about an hour, then did a light sanding over the whole body, and whiped it down with a dry, lint free cloth to get all the dust off. I let it sit overnight. Today, I was trying to decide if I should go straight into spraying or if I should clean the surface with either distilled water or mineral spirits to make sure there was no dust left over. I decided to use distilled water . I only used it on a small part when I realized the rag was somehow pulling dye up (very minuscule amounts, almost unnoticeable other than the fact that it was green on a white cloth) I immediately stopped and dried it off with a clean rag. Let it continue drying for 30 minutes, and then I did a 4th light coat of Deft Nitro. Did I make a big mistake by using water on the 1 day old finish? I'm really worried that I messed my project up. I don't want it becoming like the finish that was on there previously. It's the whole reason I decided to refinish it. :/ What are the dos and donts when Finishing with Nitro lacquer? Is mineral spirits ok? How long after I spray on a coat is it safe to sand? I'm an amateur at best when it comes to finishing wood, but so far things have been going well, and I know if I mess this up theres no going back. haha. Please help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 On solvent lacquer finishes, just wipe back after sanding using a lint free cloth. No need to "clean" with any liquid. Any lacquer "dust" residing on the surface after sanding will "re-wet" and become part of the finish on the next pass of applying your lacquer. After sanding, the reason you're picking up color is because you don't have enough lacquer applied yet, together with the lacquer that is already down, has likely pulled some color up into the finish. I have wet sanded a heavy coat of lacquer after about 15 to 20 minutes of dry, no big deal. Rock on, your doing fine. Just make sure the surface is not damp from water before you re-coat. You want a dry surface! -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Phew. *sigh of relief* Thanks Ace. You've calmed my nerves quite a bit. I went ahead and did a 5th coat just a little bit ago. I went a little heavier this time trying to finish up this can of Nitro. Letting this coat dry probably for an hour or more before going again. I did some research while waiting for a reply here and I did find that same information; that Nitro lacquer reactivates and "melts" together with the previous coat. Which also gave me a bit of nerve relief. Nitro seems like a pretty forgiving material to work with. What kind of problems typically cause a clear coat finish to become tacky/sticky? For example, before I refinished this bass, the finish would become sticky from the heat from my arm/leg and it would collect dirt/grime onto the surface. What causes that, and what can be done to prevent that? Do I have to worry about my Nitro finish doing the same thing after the project is done? EDIT: actually I just remembered, the guitar's finish stuck to my guitar stands as well, so it wasn't because of the body heat. It was simply prolonged pressure on one part. It would cause the finish to squish and move and it would become sticky. Same question remains, what causes that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Well you music guys drink a lot of booze and sweat when ya play, :P (my brother has been in a band for years and years and that is what they do...HA!) Seriously, the oils from the body and sweat...do something to the finish, they have a name for that, but I forgot. Yes it softens up the finish. Some folks just have a funky body chemistry and will attack lacquer. Do you have a rubber neck pad on the Axe stand? Sometimes rubber will not play nice with the lacquer and will print into the neck. Does the finish feel funky from being in the guitar case? -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Well you music guys drink a lot of booze and sweat when ya play, :P (my brother has been in a band for years and years and that is what they do...HA!) Seriously, the oils from the body and sweat...do something to the finish, they have a name for that, but I forgot. Yes it softens up the finish. Some folks just have a funky body chemistry and will attack lacquer. Do you have a rubber neck pad on the Axe stand? Sometimes rubber will not play nice with the lacquer and will print into the neck. Does the finish feel funky from being in the guitar case? -Ace- Hahaha! I would say that's the reason, but I never had that problem with any other instrument before. Whatever this guy put on this bass to finish it, just didn't cure right or something. I tried setting the bass on two different guitar stands... one with the normal soft foam, and the other had This stuff: http://www.lulusoso.com/upload/20120420/3_8_Air_conditioner_insulation_hose.jpg covering it and over night the lacquer literally stick to it and when I took the bass off the next day it ripped a chunk off and was stuck to the bass! I tried wet sanding the sticky areas, no dice, I tried goo gone and it seemed to work for a while, but it came back. I just don't know. I only fear this happening again is all. I'm going to try to take every precaution possible to prevent it, but If it's the nature of lacquer to do this, I guess I'll have to deal with it. My only assumption is that he didn't take the care and time to let the bass cure or dry before applying lacquer. I make that assumption because of the various wrinkles and lifting of lacquer in areas. not to mention various drops of solder in the clear coat. Anywho, so far so good. I've got 3 cans of Deft lacquer to spray on... going for a nice thick clear coat that I will later sand down with a fine grit and polish with Automotive polish. If anyone has any wisdom to share with me on finishing with Lacquer, it's always welcome! I'll post some pictures for you guys too so you can see all the work I've done from the beginning til now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Nc and chloride dont play we'll together. Ever been to a resteraunt with sticky old wooden table tops and soft finish. That's chloride softening. Newer precats dont have this problem deft still does. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Nc and chloride dont play we'll together. Ever been to a resteraunt with sticky old wooden table tops and soft finish. That's chloride softening. Newer precats dont have this problem deft still does. Don So I shouldn't clean my bass with bleach or salt water? Know of any other issues? Is there another brand I should use as my final topcoat to prevent such issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Well, I've done it now. Forgot to check the weather for the humidity. My finish is blushing. as soon as I checked the weather I ran outside and pulled the project inside to finish drying, but the damage was done, it seems. I've been reading that lacquer thinner helps. Would sanding help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 So I shouldn't clean my bass with bleach or salt water? Know of any other issues? Is there another brand I should use as my final topcoat to prevent such issues? Or touch it. Your sweat will do the same. SW precat will hold up better than deft, even a WB poly would last longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Thats interesting on the blush. To my knowledge, the brushing and spray deft have a retarder in it to slow the dry. Hence making it difficult to blush? If the blushing is sitting on top. It will sand out. Question...you are spraying clear and a not satin. -Ace- Carry on with the lacquer and don't over think it. Sounds like the finish previously on the bass was prepped improperly or the lacquer finish was getting very old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Thats interesting on the blush. To my knowledge, the brushing and spray deft have a retarder in it to slow the dry. Hence making it difficult to blush? If the blushing is sitting on top. It will sand out. Question...you are spraying clear and a not satin. -Ace- Carry on with the lacquer and don't over think it. Sounds like the finish previously on the bass was prepped improperly or the lacquer finish was getting very old? It was about 75% humidity when I sprayed earlier. (I live in Florida, kind of difficult to dodge humidity) It's a very light blushing, not extreme, and it's only in spots that I went a little heavy on (the edges mainly). I'm spraying Deft Clear Wood Finish (semi-gloss) I think I might try sanding it out a bit. Should I use 320 or something higher like 600/800? Thanks, I tend to over think especially with things like this. EDIT: I think I'm going to go ahead and go the Blush eraser route. Reading different forums, somebody noted a very important issue with trying to sand out blush. As soon as you scuff that lacquer, how are you going to know if you got it all? and if you lay another Lacquer coat on top, chances are you're going to trap that moisture in there for good. So I'll just do it right from the beginning.Ordering some Blush eraser. I ordered some Behlen Blush Eraser. It's suppose to rain here the next 3-4 days anyways, so I can't do any work on the project... might as well use that time to wait for the Blush eraser to ship! No wasted time! haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Here's the progress of this project from start all the way through til I was ready to lacquer.. no lacquer shots yet. Taken apart, taped up. You can't see all the blemishes in the original finish, but you can see some of the blushing on the left side. There were wrinkles, and sticky areas as well. Strip started. first strip session second strip session after some more stripping AND sanding... before this I realized he stained the wood, so I was using stripper and sanding to pull the stain out of the wood. Worked quite well. Real fun begins. After sanding a LOT and then the 2 bleaching sessions to remove the stain further. I used a super concentrated mixture of Calcium hypochlorite to bleach the wood. Worked quite well. This is after sanding and cleaning the wood with distilled water to remove the bleach from the wood. here it is after I RE-sanded. I could still see some scratches in the wood and some uneven spots that I didn't like the look of. I skipped a few grits in the initial sanding, and I went way too high in grits. I originally sanded all the way up to 1000, thinking that's how you got a super smooth finish. But upon reading stuff here at The Wood Whisperer, I foudn out that when using dyes or stains you dont want to go too high or the stain/dye has issues absorbing. so I resanded, this time not skipping any grits and stopping at 320. (60, 80, 100, 120, 180, 220, 320) Smoothed out all the scratches and overall looked a lot better and more even. I've only been posting the front of the bass since I dont want to have to post like 40 pics. Started with black dye (on the back.. kinda my test side. since it's not as important as the front.) As you can see, this cheap bass was made with multiple pieces of wood. Resulting in the dye not absorbing evenly. but hey, it adds character. Dried. Sanded preparing to create the burst affect. Green dye added and used the black to feather it in creating the burst. *oooo ahhh* And jump ahead a little bit, heres the front with dye And after this pic I did one more session with dye on front and back to clean up any lines left behind, and then I started lacquer. haven't taken any pics yet. The back doesn't look as good now, because I tried to do some different things with it, but it still looks nice. the front looks great. I also painted most of the hardware. It was all chrome hardware with a red tortoise shell pick guard, but I used some Krylon fusion paint and painted them: And heres a little preview to see what it looked like on the bass: super happy. I'll be even happier when I can get rid of the blushing and start spraying again. Thanks for reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Things are shaping up...that's great news A few things come to mind. First, about that end-grain blushing. How long did you let the wood dry out after bleaching? Second, next time it's always a good idea to neutralize the bleach. If you don't, re-wetting the wood with finishes can cause you issues with your finishing. My observation to the blushing perhaps the wood is still trying to dry out? The surface may be dry to the touch. However the moisture has pulled deep into the wood and trying to work it's way out through endgrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRBaker Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 +1 with what Ace said. I'm originally from central Florida and I've sprayed tons of lacquer, so I know what you are dealing with, as far as humidity. However, I never had problems with spray can lacquer blushing. When I read your description of how you stripped and bleached the wood, my first thought was that you didn't wait long enough to allow proper drying. Do you have access to a moisture meter, so you can check the wood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Ace, The bleaching was definitely neutrilized with distilled water. Thoroughly. I thought I noted that in my last post. My fault. And then on top of that, I used Transfast water soluble dye and dyed with that, so if there was any issues with bleach it would have showed up when I was dyeing. And the wood was most certainly completely dry before I started spraying lacquer. I did the last of the dyeing about 4 days before the lacquer went on, and it wasn't flooded. it was just a light dyeing session to fix some lines. All excess was wiped off, and it was completely dry in a few hours, but I still let it dry for a few more days. Also, the first 5 coats of lacquer were fine. I did 2 in one day very light, the next day I did a heavier coat and let that dry. Nothing was wrong with it. I sanded it a little bit, wiped it down with a dry rag. Then the next day (3rd day of lacquer) I did 1 light coat, let it sit for an hour (double the recommended time) and did a heavy coat. I let that dry for about 20ish hours. Again, no blushing whatsoever. On the 4th day I did a 6th coat of lacquer. It was a light/medium coat, and I went over the edges a 2nd time, And let it dry. That's when I realized the humidity was high, went and looked about 10 minutes after I sprayed and sure enough, blushing. brought it inside after that. And it only blushed in the areas I went over twice. So that's why I'm positive it was the humidity. I would think 5 coats of lacquer would have shown some sort of blushing if it was the wood being wet. I gave each coat plenty of time to dry and I always checked it over before doing another coat. thanks for all the advice guys. Hoping to see that blush eraser in the mail soon. then I can make some more progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 You quoted "I used a super concentrated mixture of Calcium hypochlorite to bleach the wood" That is pool bleach...yes? I'm thinking it would take gallons and gallons of water to dilute the bleach from the wood. Something like a white vinegar or a commercial neutralizer was along the line of my thinking. Just saying... the wood was exposed to a lot of moisture and that is a thick hunk of wood so it takes longer to dry out. Then the wood was re-wet with water-based dye, plus you indicated you live in Florida and humidity has been high thus making it take longer for the wood to dry out. Finishing issues can take time to show their ugly heads. Maybe fine for a couple months then the finish starts to deteriorate and adhesion is lost and finish starts to peel or get tacky. So carry on, sounds like you got things on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erad Posted February 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 You quoted "I used a super concentrated mixture of Calcium hypochlorite to bleach the wood" That is pool bleach...yes? I'm thinking it would take gallons and gallons of water to dilute the bleach from the wood. Something like a white vinegar or a commercial neutralizer was along the line of my thinking. Just saying... the wood was exposed to a lot of moisture and that is a thick hunk of wood so it takes longer to dry out. Then the wood was re-wet with water-based dye, plus you indicated you live in Florida and humidity has been high thus making it take longer for the wood to dry out. Finishing issues can take time to show their ugly heads. Maybe fine for a couple months then the finish starts to deteriorate and adhesion is lost and finish starts to peel or get tacky. So carry on, sounds like you got things on track. Haha Your thinking is correct, and I in fact did use gallons and gallons of distilled water haha. I followed some guides online for bleaching wood and from what I've read, distilled water is the best way to neutralize the chlorine. And there was a couple weeks between bleaching and starting to dye. And the dye process was done over a few weeks as well. The wood was always stored in doors so no humidity was on it while drying. I definitely didn't rush this project as I wanted it to be done right. Although I'm certain the wood was completely dry before lacquering, you scare me with the talk of finish deteriorating and adhesion loss taking months to show up. haha. I guess all I can do is hope that it doesn't happen. I tried to take all the precautions necessary, but if it messes up, I'll have learned an important lesson. Trial by fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Sorry not trying to scare, merely trying to inform. Most folks tend to only focus or read about finishing issues from the application side of things. Such as fish-eye, blushing...well you get the picture. -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 You dont need to neutralize calcium hypochlorite bleach, its not an acid and will off gass all by itself it will have a ph of about 12. Oxalic acid is a wood "bleach" that is actually an acid that needs to be neutralized it will have a ph of about 1.5 Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 =>You dont need to neutralize calcium hypochlorite bleach, its not an acid and will off gass all by itself it will have a ph of about 12. Oxalic acid is a wood "bleach" that is actually an acid that needs to be neutralized it will have a ph of about 1.5 Don Always a good idea to neutralize in my opinion, along with potential finishing issues, another good reason is chlorine bleach attacks and breaks down the woods fibers, can make the wood punky and soft. This can cause your color to take up unevenly. So by neutralizing it, you stop the action quickly. -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 The point is that bleach is pretty much dead once the oxidation takes place its nearly back to a neutral. Adding water just adds moisture back into the wood on top of that already added with the bleach. Adding vinegar does just the opposite, It will drop the ph to below neutral because it is a week acid. All your doing is pushing and pulling back and forth making the wood wetter and wetter. Soda water will neutralize oxalic acid but that stuff is really best just for black spot or ferrous stains like you see alot in oak. The idea with "bleaching" is to know what your trying to get rid of. For example oak your after the ferrous materials and the way to go after ferrous material is an acid (very low ph). Bleach (very high ph) will oxidize natural pigments found in the wood or put there by a previous finish but wont do anything for ferrous. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I'm of the belief that chlorine bleach was at the high end of the scale and vinegar at the low end and by wiping a vinegar over a chlorine will move it down to a neutral? -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 I'm of the belief that chlorine bleach was at the high end of the scale and vinegar at the low end and by wiping a vinegar over a chlorine will move it down to a neutral? -Ace-Pretty much what I said but since the bleach has already reacted it went back down all by itself. The vinegar takes it to an acid. Bleach reacts quickly. Bleach oxidation is a redox reaction. Its an ion (could be electron, its been 40 years since jr high chemistry)thief and once it takes the ion its dead. Once it evaporates its gone for good. With acid it evaporates and leaves a solid that can be rewetted with your finish, thus why you neutralize with sodawater or bicarbonate. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Chlorine is a halogen IIRC so no residual the halogen reacts with surrounding O2. Don Edit: oops there was a post this was a response to but its gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceHoleInOne Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 Chlorine is a halogen IIRC so no residual the halogen reacts with surrounding O2. Don Edit: oops there was a post this was a response to but its gone. Yep that was me! I deleted the post... I'm not too fast with a keyboard as you. You had already responded. Sorry for that! -Ace- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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