What defines quality in woodworking

[dwacker]

I like screws

 

[Guest]

I agree as far as joining legs to an apron, those stupid little corner brackets should be banned. 

 

Does your statement hold true for attaching table tops with screws? If so, what is your preferred method? I am mostly speaking about a Shaker style end table, not a dining table. 

 

Is there a better way to build a table where the legs can be knocked down?  If you are building a rectangle dining table for 8, you run the risk of not being able to get through doorways or tight corners. 

[Llama]

Is there a better way to build a table where the legs can be knocked down?  If you are building a rectangle dinging table for 8, you run the risk of not being able to get through doorways or tight corners. 

 

I am mostly speaking about a Shaker style end table, not a dining table. 

 

I don't build big things like that, I don't know  

[Guest]

Mel Morris, on 12 Dec 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

I am mostly speaking about a Shaker style end table, not a dining table. 

 

 

Ha, I missed that part.  I would agree that metal brackets are not necessary on a small side table. 

[Dan S]

To me a piece is only quality if it doesn't cut corners. I think screws and even nails are ok under the right circumstances. Plywood is even acceptable in very limited circumstances. 

[Eric.]

I agree as far as joining legs to an apron, those stupid little corner brackets should be banned. 

 

Does your statement hold true for attaching table tops with screws? If so, what is your preferred method? I am mostly speaking about a Shaker style end table, not a dining table. 

 

No, I left in the caveat of hinges and table tops.  There are other rare exceptions too.  But for the most part, if it can be a purely wooden joint, it should be. IMO

 

Is there a better way to build a table where the legs can be knocked down?  If you are building a rectangle dinging table for 8, you run the risk of not being able to get through doorways or tight corners. 

 

Sliding dovetails?

[Dan S]

I 100% agree with this.

But for the most part, if it can be a purely wooden joint, it should be. IMO

[sjeff70]

I use David Marks as my guide for quality which may be similar to Eric's.

Wouldn't the standard of using plywoods or MDF only as substrates for veneers - and no screws except for table tops - more than qualify as heirloom quality by traditional standards?

 

 

[Tom King]

If several generations later someone is proud to have it in their home, wants to take care of it so they can pass it on , and it only appreciates in value.

[krtwood]

Well I'm quite late to my own party.  I would rephrase the question as what is craftsmanship rather than quality.  We tend to hold up only examples of people who have gone to the extreme of quality regardless of the cost as what is craftsmanship.  Figuring out how to get 90-95% of the way there with 50% of the work in a way where no one but the person that made knows the difference is something that person is supposed to feel like they cheated somehow.  Everything has got to be "heirloom quality" or you aren't a real craftsman.  At some point you aren't adding value to the piece anymore you are just satisfying your own neurotic obsessions and that isn't craftsmanship.  There's got to be some element of "value added" by any work done, which is impossible to quantify but you know it when you see it. 

 

Not to pick on Marc here, but in the platform bed video when he glues up two pieces to make up the long rails he decides he's going to add screws even though it's a long grain to long grain joint.  I think he even admits there's no point to it, it's just to make him feel better.   And then he needs to plug the screw holes even though they are not seen.  And then he's got to start obsessing over the color and grain match of the plugs that are never going to be seen, covering screws that didn't need to be there in the first place.  None of that added any value to it but then he's got to theoretically charge $6k for the bed. 

 

When you go down the path of "heirloom quality" then the cost just starts to spiral.  There's nothing at all wrong with aiming to make something as good as it can possibly be, but I think it's also wrong to say that's the only way things should be done.

 

An example from my own work:

 

 

One of these uses pocket screws to attach the rails to the sides while the other uses dowels.  One has a rectangular box with drawer fronts that overlap it while the other has a curved top and bottom that led to curved rails and inset drawer fronts.  Otherwise they are pretty much the same thing.  Which one is better?  Which one is stronger?  Which one is easier to sell?  Which one is more interesting to make?  Which one makes more profit?

 

As far as the argument that you can only sell what people want, that's what marketing is for.  Apple was perceived as being overpriced and uncool.  Then Jobs came back and you know the rest.  People would stand in line to buy the iphone when there was a better, cheaper option.  We're still in this bad recession yet the sports stadiums are still mostly full where it costs $250+ to take the family and we pay guys that are going to be 40 at the end of their contracts $20+ million a year.  I don't know the way to convince people to pay a little more for something of quality, but I'm sure it doesn't start by throwing your hands up in the air and giving up. 

 

[..Kev]

Umm..  To stay on topic, great post!

 

However, those are stunning pieces!

[chopnhack]

One of these uses pocket screws to attach the rails to the sides while the other uses dowels.  One has a rectangular box with drawer fronts that overlap it while the other has a curved top and bottom that led to curved rails and inset drawer fronts.  Otherwise they are pretty much the same thing.  Which one is better?  Which one is stronger?  Which one is easier to sell?  Which one is more interesting to make?  Which one makes more profit?

 

As far as the argument that you can only sell what people want, that's what marketing is for.  Apple was perceived as being overpriced and uncool.  Then Jobs came back and you know the rest.  People would stand in line to buy the iphone when there was a better, cheaper option.  We're still in this bad recession yet the sports stadiums are still mostly full where it costs $250+ to take the family and we pay guys that are going to be 40 at the end of their contracts $20+ million a year.  I don't know the way to convince people to pay a little more for something of quality, but I'm sure it doesn't start by throwing your hands up in the air and giving up. 

 

It's a interesting argument, but the comparison is not likely. Don't get me wrong! I wish you well in your endeavor :-) Just realistically we as woodworkers think and look at the world around us very differently. Marketing can do wonders for your business, but there still has to be a strong market for your product. The likelihood of you creating your own market is very low. Everyone wants a smart phone, tablet, etc.. people will forgo many things, but if you check their pocket, they are rocking the latest cell techno...

 

As others have pointed out there needs to be a strong need for your product in your demographic because they don't have lots of expendable income. An example, (and a bad one at that because its fraught with other dangers) is convertible cribs. They fit this markets need for value. A crib while the child is young, converting to a full size or twin bed when the child is able to use it. This gives the parents a single purchase (aside from mattresses) for their child's bedding needs, foreseeably until they leave or take it with them! It's also knock down so that it transports fairly easily. These are all attributes that families in these brackets would probably find value in. But, regardless of value, if they are in a pinch, they may choose today over tomorrow... perhaps that is how they end up in those pinches more often than others? Sometimes there just isn't enough money to go around period.

 

Find a product that this group buys often and is disappointed in because it either breaks too quickly or there is not enough variability or customization available in the product. True, you don't want to compete with a store bought item, but if your item is unique enough and of better quality, they might just go for it.

[Rick A McQuay]

Quality (furniture) to me comes in a sliding scale, at one end is sturdy and properly built and at the other end is high quality meaning proper wood joints, matching grain, no stain, no metal except where you might need to disassemble it, and a level of fit and finish that sets it apart. If someone makes a well made rustic farmhouse table then who am I to say it is not quality?

 

When it comes to markets... many years ago when I first bought a house and had a woodworking shop for the first time I hoped to start a business making custom furniture so I chatted with a well known woodworker who runs his own school, has written books and articles, and has made custom furniture for decades and this is what he told me (paraphrased), 'There's no money in it. The rich folks hire architects who hire woodworkers or they hire artists with a big reputation. The middle class folks don't want heirloom custom furniture, they want to go shopping because it's more exciting than looking at drawings and waiting 8 months. Poor folks can't afford it. So unless you have architect friends you're left with the few middle or upper middle class people who want to impress their friends but there are so many guys doing what I do that I can't charge enough.' He went on to tell me that's why he writes articles and books, why he runs a woodworking school, because those things pay much better than making custom furniture and it's a way of marketing himself. That was in the mid-90's and things have changed a bit since then. The DIY craze helped people appreciate quality things but I still suspect it is a tough market. And if you're wondering, I didn't go into the custom furniture business. Well I did dip my toe in the water but it was frustrating and very competitive so I went a different way.

[RPCV_Woodworker]

So, I'm nice and late to this thread, but I wanted to throw out there an added twist:

 

woodworking is most affordable, economical, and ecological, when done in rural areas, near forests and sawmills.  This doesn't even take into account the inspirational value to woodworkers of being near the forest, and away from concrete mega-structures and asphalt.  However, the people who can truly afford the artisanal wares are generally residents of high income suburbia or of the emergent gentrified areas "urburbs" populated by yupsters (hipsters with well paying jobs).  So, to adequately market to the two groups most likely to want a luxury artisanal good (and brag about it to create new clients) we as woodworkers either need to develop storefronts in areas far removed from our locations, or to move our operations into highly taxed, highly regulated, and highly priced locations.  

 

So, urban woodworkers vs rural woodworkers, who's got the angle?  Discuss.

[Trip]

Furniture quality falls within the Elephant Test* (sometimes called, the Elephant Rule)... BTW: so does porn, according to Justice Stewart

 

There are no absolute rules... screws/no-screws, nails/no-nails, dowels/MT, et al...

 

If you visit the Met, you can see what's arguably the greatest collection of "fine furniture" in the Western Hemisphere... Some have nails, some have screws, some have dowels, etc...

 

I think the point is not the presence or absence of a particular element... The piece should be considered as a whole.

 

My criteria for "quality": the piece should be functional, pleasing to the eye and has lasted (or will list) for several centuries...

 

I try to build "quality" furniture, but I'm not sure how many of my pieces will be around in the 23rd C...

 

In 200 years, will my design still please the eye? Will my joinery hold? Will it still serve a useful function?

 

Maybe someone will build a time-machine and let me know...

 

 

*Note: Elephant Test... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_test

[Coop]

krtwood, those are damn nice pieces. I like TIODS, don't mean to venture off of the subject but I like live edge furniture!! What woods did you use?

[krtwood]

It's a interesting argument, but the comparison is not likely. Don't get me wrong! I wish you well in your endeavor :-) Just realistically we as woodworkers think and look at the world around us very differently. Marketing can do wonders for your business, but there still has to be a strong market for your product. The likelihood of you creating your own market is very low. Everyone wants a smart phone, tablet, etc.. people will forgo many things, but if you check their pocket, they are rocking the latest cell techno...

 

 

I agree with you that one individual woodworker is unlikely to be able to do anything marketing wise to change people's thoughts on the subject.  But what about woodworkers as a group?  And craftspeople as a whole?  Everybody who makes anything complains about how people don't appreciate quality.  But I reckon that's been going on back to the caveman days when guys were grunting their disapproval at people making those quick and easy fires with flint instead of a handcrafted friction fire.  That's why I question what definition we use for craftsmanship or quality because if we are mainly sending out a message that it means something unattainable by the masses then you've already lost them.  Everybody who has a wide cultural presence is all about talking about how to do the craft, not getting people to just need a handcrafted doodad.  We need the Steve Jobs of crafts.

 

I think it's more and more possible to make it work.  We've got the internet to reach customers outside our area.  We've got affordable (for certain definitions of affordable) cnc technology.  We've got a new healthcare law in the US that means maybe you can afford insurance if you quit your day job.

 

Thanks for the comments on the boxes.  The first one is cherry with walnut slabs, the second one is walnut fronts on a mahogany box with hickory slabs.  The cherry crotch came from a big 12/4 slab that was from the center of the tree and cracked to hell so it was cheap but I was able to resaw a whole bunch of wood like that from it.  And the walnut is just a section where a couple knots were in a regular board.  People are always making boxes by throwing as much expensive wood as they can at a dull design.  With a little creativity you can do something with less expensive materials and not a lot of complicated work that still has some wow factor.  I like to pull out the expensive woods as much as the next guy too though   But I'm more about the creativity of the design than the process of the build, so my thinking aligns with that.  In 20 years maybe I'll be all about obsessing over the details of one project to perfection.

[dwacker]

  We've got a new healthcare law in the US that means maybe you can afford insurance if you quit your day job.

 

 

 Don't be fooled.

[Trip]

==>   Don't be fooled.

 

Such a cynic...  Don't you know, any woodworker going pro these days will fall well below the poverty-line and qualify for a full subsidy... 

 

Apologies in advance...

[..Kev]

Still too expensive!

[Guest]

So, I'm nice and late to this thread, but I wanted to throw out there an added twist:

woodworking is most affordable, economical, and ecological, when done in rural areas, near forests and sawmills. This doesn't even take into account the inspirational value to woodworkers of being near the forest, and away from concrete mega-structures and asphalt. However, the people who can truly afford the artisanal wares are generally residents of high income suburbia or of the emergent gentrified areas "urburbs" populated by yupsters (hipsters with well paying jobs). So, to adequately market to the two groups most likely to want a luxury artisanal good (and brag about it to create new clients) we as woodworkers either need to develop storefronts in areas far removed from our locations, or to move our operations into highly taxed, highly regulated, and highly priced locations.

So, urban woodworkers vs rural woodworkers, who's got the angle? Discuss.

Well it seems like you made up your mind already . i am one of those over taxed over regulated guys i guess. fica, federal, state and property taxes account for about 40% of my income, my wife spends the other 60%. At a 10% local sales tax rate i guess i am paying close to 46% but someone needs to pay for obamacare and the farm bill and the social security i will probably never get. In terms of regulation I do not have any issues. My HOA can be a little over zealous but as long as your yard is clean and your car has all four wheels attached they do not give much trouble.

I live in the chicago suburbs now, before that i was in new york city and before that downtown chicago. I like the diversity, i like the people, i like the pace.

in terms of woodworking i find plenty of inspiration. the concrete and granite skyscraper i work in has a lobby paneled in bookmatched QSWO. i have a view of some of the best architecture in the world. i spend a lot of time in meeting rooms that have awesome conference tables and built ins. my first exposure to fine woodworking was a conference table at an office I worked in during college. It was shaped like a giant surf board and made from solid cherry about 2 1/2 inches thick. of course i was the guy who dropped a fork on it two weeks after it was delivered! i grew up in a mostly blue collar suburb in the 1980s, up until then i thought there was red oak and pine and not much else. My parents replaced the painted plywood cabinets with solid birch when i was 16. My dad near roped those things off and would rub them down like cameron's dad's ferrari.

i am less than 2 hours away from the great hardwood forests of the upper midwest so can get pretty much every domestic hardwood sawmill direct. there is also a local place that saws urban and yard trees so i can get things like elm, ash, hackberry, catalpa, ginkgo without a problem. I am sure rural folks can get these things too, but i do not think i at a disadvantage.

So i think i have it pretty good. Compared to rural areas Chicago might be expensive, but when i lived in New York my rent was 4x what i paid in chicago for a much nicer place. i paid new york state and city income taxes which added up to close to 10% i believe (i could be off a little bit, it was a traumatic experience so trying to forget).

All that being said times have changed and i assume pretty much anywhere you go you will find some people who appreciate artisan made goods. A lot of this did originate in rural areas. it used to be if you wanted fresh fruit or good cheese or or anything hand made you needed to find a farmer or an amish guy. Now you have hipsters in brooklyn making cured meats and accountants in Evanston distilling craft whiskies.

[CessnaPilotBarry]

What defines quality? Expectation.

 

Nailed it!  

 

It all comes down to the end user...  If the expectation is to locate a board in a crosscut sled, a scrap of MDF that does the job properly is "quality".   If the expectation is something that would have confounded the Roetgens during construction, so be it. 

 

The most important part of any discussion of quality is to define what the term means to the parties involved.

 

I also believe that fine art, created to convey a feeling or mood, and "quality" have little to no relationship.