graffis Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Does anyone know if it is legal (or ethical), in response to a posting, to attach a copy of a woodworking journal article as a pdf file which addresses the issue/question at hand? Does this violate copyright laws? Is it better to reference the journal, volume, page, etc. with the hopes that the person submitting the question can retreive the original article on his/her own. I recently went to Kinko's to enlarge a pattern to scale from a journal and was told it was illegal to do this in spite of my arguments that the author would not provide the scaling information if it was proprietory. It's a slightly different issue but it's a refection of how seriously people are taking the copyright laws. Any thoughts or experience about this would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mikem Posted February 12, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I believe this would violate copyright laws. You are able to quote, and give credit to the author, aspects of the article, but not the entire article. You would be better off referencing it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Kinkos is wrong. You are turning pattern making info into the pattern. Posting a whole article violates copyright. Photos (I have been told) are proprietary all on their own so I would walk carefully there. If you want to quote the article, I would not do this without citing the source similar to a research paper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Melton Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Fair use is a complicated concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use#Amount_and_substantiality Courts apply a four part test to determine if something is indeed fair use. As stated previously, if you aren't using the entire work, and it is for a non commercial purpose, it's generally accepted as fair use as long as it isn't causing a negative commercial impact on the copyright holder. From a purely ethical perspective, I don't know of many authors that would be bothered by an out of print article being shared. The only stuff I have ever published is in now out of print trade journals and I'd be happy if people shared it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisphr Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 If the author provided scaling information, I think it could be argued (if it was not explicitly written in the journal) that the author was giving you permission to copy to scale for your own use. Also, if you own a copy of copyrighted material, I think it is legal to make facsimiles for your own use. Like buying music and having a copy on your iPhone and computer. I think the kinkos guy should have minded his own business in this case. The posting of a PDF (web links are fine) is problematic because even in the context of discussion it could be viewed as distribution. Ethical and legal are different things, I just try to do what feels right to me. Recently I photographed and posted the first page of a plan I bought from FWW just to show what I was working on. Legally not sure. Ethically, by my standards, no problem. The page printed did not have schematics, cut lists, or anything else that made the plans valuable. Just tried to do what feels right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 In the world of free flowing information we live it in, I think it is 100% appropriate to share anything found free online. I would not think twice about sharing a pdf that I found over the internet. The reason is I am not trying to make money from the information. I probably wouldn't scan and create a pdf of an article from a magazine or book, which wasn't available free online, simply because that is starting to cross some lines, especially if I had to pay for the it. I have had the same issues with getting scaled drawings printed at one of the Office Supply stores. Nobody will do it in my area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minorhero Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 If you have a journal that you scan in and then make into a PDF and then share that online, there is no question you are violating copyright laws. Forget fair use, the courts have made such a muddle of that that it is useless for mere mortals to try and apply it to everyday life. Now regarding the scale, if this scale was not opinion or fictional or creative, but was simply facts, like a conversion from mm to inches or some such, then it is specifically not protected by copyright. So to put it another way, a recipe in a recipe book is not protected by copyright, but if the author tells you a little story about the recipe, like that his grandmother used to make it when it snowed etc. Then the story part is protected while the rest is not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 WWJ has to grant you a license if you don't have it all rights are reserved. You can link to the origonal PDF you cannot redistribute. No Kinko's is right unless you were granted a license you also can't copy. That being said Kinkos is covering their butts but you can get around it by creating your own file. They won't worry about it if they can assume its your file and had no reason to believe that it copyright protected. Highlight and scale up and use print to PDF. Email kinkos the file and they will print it on plain paper. I do this all the time with drawings from designers every since my plotter crapped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Yeah, they are pretty much just covering their bases in case something were to happen. When I worked at Walgreens, I was in the photo department. Of the millions of pictures I processed, you better believe there were a lot of school pictures, wedding pictures, etc. Some did not have a stamp on them, but most did. Most people were very understanding that I could not reproduce the picture without written consent of the photographer, however there were few that were just livid that I would not make them copies. Oh well, guess that's customer service. I understand that cameras have evolved well over the years, and if people could make a case that they were the photographer themselves, I had a form they could sign off all liability if they were not telling the truth. However, for most photographers, you pay an extra fee and they release all rights to you for purpose of making as many copies as you want. You have a copyright release form that you bring in and prove that the pictures are able to be copied. Easy. I think the kinkos guy should have minded his own business in this case. Absolutely not. That is a terrible business decision. Imagine if the picture happened to be by someone who did not want it copied by a third party, and they sued for a lot of money. Not only would this hurt Kinkos financially, but reputably as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisphr Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Absolutely not. That is a terrible business decision. Imagine if the picture happened to be by someone who did not want it copied by a third party, and they sued for a lot of money. Not only would this hurt Kinkos financially, but reputably as well. Don't think I am disagreeing with you. In the context of retail employees, it cannot be expected that they can interpret the law correctly in every case so over protective policy is adopted, "covering their butts", as you said. However in THIS case, I think the policy obstructed legal use (and a sale, for that matter). Perhaps I should have said the Kinkos person misinterpreted the law instead of should have minded their own business. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Don't think I am disagreeing with you. In the context of retail employees, it cannot be expected that they can interpret the law correctly in every case so over protective policy is adopted, "covering their butts", as you said. However in THIS case, I think the policy obstructed legal use (and a sale, for that matter). Perhaps I should have said the Kinkos person misinterpreted the law instead of should have minded their own business. All rights reserved means just that unless you have something in writing all rights reserved is assumed. The Kinkos employee was right that you had no written legal documentation showing that your could copy the photo in any way. Notice they misspelled Rockler. Copyright Notice Copyright © 2010 Rockler Press dba Woodworker's Journal 4365 Willow Drive Medina, MN 55340 All Rights Reserved. All content, information, software, photographs, product descriptions, product information, product classifications, product arrangements, video, graphics, music, HTML, sounds and other material, including the selection, coordination, arrangement and enhancement of all such material on this site (collectively, "Content"), are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. The Content may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the express prior written permission of Rocker Companies, Inc., which reserves all rights. Use of any of the Content for any purpose other than your own personal and non-commercial use is strictly prohibited. Woodworkers Journal Magazine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pghmyn Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 So, could that statement be null and void essentially because the business it is protecting is not spelled correctly? If I broke one of those copyright statements for Rockler, and they drew up a lawsuit, could I say that they have not expressed a copyright explicitly for their company? I know that would be a jerk move, but in this world you really have to cross your t's and dot your i's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 So, could that statement be null and void essentially because the business it is protecting is not spelled correctly? If I broke one of those copyright statements for Rockler, and they drew up a lawsuit, could I say that they have not expressed a copyright explicitly for their company? I know that would be a jerk move, but in this world you really have to cross your t's and dot your i's No they dont have to give you any notice at all. The notice is just to inform you of what is assumed anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisphr Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Understood, but in a diy'r journal with specific direction on how to scale up the diagrams for your own use? Not arguing, now I am just interested. Good discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 There is no purpose for provision of a non-copyright protected (marked on the drawing) scaled drawing except for the holder of the magazine. If the magazine has your ownership (not the public library etc.), you have the right to convey the media to a different medium. This is what allows me to purchase sheet music, hold the original in a file, photocopy a "working copy" that will get marked up, destroy the copy after the working period, and never lose the ability to start the process over with clean originals. This is fair use protected. The fact that a scaled drawing is provided as a drawing signifies that it is intended for the use of the end owner. To convey the content to a consumable media is not a violation unless you sell the plan or impede the sale of the plan. You already purchased the plan. If the copyright holder did not intend you to use a scaled drawing, it is up to them to mark the drawing. The copyright mark, like any magazine, deals with articles and the magazine itself in their entirety. You cannot reserve the right of fair use. That said, I understand not wanting your Kinko employee to be making that determination. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Understood, but in a diy'r journal with specific direction on how to scale up the diagrams for your own use? Not arguing, now I am just interested. Good discussion. How does Kinko's know you are not selling them? Why should they trust you or me? Thats why you do your own file upscale and there is reason for them to question it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Great post graffis !!! Sorry to ask a question but I think things are a bit different here in Ireland. Are ye not allowed print a scale drawing from a book or magazine for personal use ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Great post graffis !!! Sorry to ask a question but I think things are a bit different here in Ireland. Are ye not allowed print a scale drawing from a book or magazine for personal use ??? Yes but there is no indemnifacation for the copier service thus why many won't do it for you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Divetta Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Here in general you would be given the benefit of the doubt. If there were no markings or instructions on the plans stating that they were not to be reproduced then they wouldn't really have a problem. If something did happen and you did get into trouble for copying the plans the copier would still be safe because he didn't know what you were doing is illegal and they can't be held liable for your actions. Very interesting stuff though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Pritchard Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 A slight departure from the topic, if you have access to a printer - laser or copier - and use a PC (sorry - no Mac software I understand), then Matthias Wandel over at WoodGears.ca has the software you need to print your own projects to scale: Big Print It's only $22 which is a steal and gets round Kinkos unnecessarily covering their butts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 A slight departure from the topic, if you have access to a printer - laser or copier - and use a PC (sorry - no Mac software I understand), then Matthias Wandel over at WoodGears.ca has the software you need to print your own projects to scale: Big Print It's only $22 which is a steal and gets round Kinkos unnecessarily covering their butts Acrobat reader does it for free. You can scale up your images and print them on 8x10 paper then tape all the pages together to make one big image or send it to kinkos and they will just print it on plain roll paper no taping needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Pritchard Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 How accurate is the Acrobat Reader? I have BigPrint and it's spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 How accurate is the Acrobat Reader? I have BigPrint and it's spot on. Acrobat is perfect I use it nearly daily to scale shop drawing from designers and my own design software.I also use it to scale down templates so that my shop walls are not covered in plywood templates. As much as I hate to admit it I use it to copy designs from stickiley and maloof with photos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 This thread covers two different questions with two different considerations. I'm not a copyright lawyer so my opinion means nothing, but my gut tells me Kinko's refusal to reproduce copyrighted material is logical, albeit inconvenient and fairly stupid since if you purchased the information you should be able to do what you want with it for personal use. But as Don pointed out, there's no way for them to know what your intentions are, so them erring on the side of caution makes sense. As for linking articles to posts in a forum...the internet is the wild west...a basically unregulated abyss of information...a lawless melee of data. If you don't want your copyrighted material referenced, linked, copied and pasted in every which way imaginable, then you best keep your copyrighted material off the internet. I use whatever I may stumble across for forums, and haven't a trace of moral or ethical reservation about it. Using it for financial gain...different story. But using it for conversation's sake, no problem in my mind and good luck stopping me if you don't like it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwacker Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 As for linking articles to posts in a forum...the internet is the wild west...a basically unregulated abyss of information...a lawless melee of data. If you don't want your copyrighted material referenced, linked, copied and pasted in every which way imaginable, then you best keep your copyrighted material off the internet. I use whatever I may stumble across for forums, and haven't a trace of moral or ethical reservation about it. Using it for financial gain...different story. But using it for conversation's sake, no problem in my mind and good luck stopping me if you don't like it. So your the one that put my shop here. http://www.zuojiaju.com/thread-211373-1-1.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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