Tony Wilkins Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 No offense taken Mr. Stanford. Just downloaded the book you mentioned from Amazon. I might go ahead and try on the toolbox however as I really do have a mulligan I can take on it. If things go totally wrong then I cut off the bottom and make the small DTC from the plans rather than the large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Read the first four chapters of Kirby's book on dovetails last night. Good stuff. When I got back from an appointment I went out to the garage with the best intentions. Was going to gang cut but first I was going to do some of the practice exercises out of Kirby. Well, there was the tail board sitting up there all marked out and ready. I did it; I cut 'em. Was surprised how close I was. I'm sure the inaccuracy will show up when I chop out the waste and mark/cut out the pins but for now I'm really happy. It looks like I squared straight across and really close to my angle lines. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhl.verona Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 If I'm facing this conundrum when I start in the shop, I grab a piece of scrap and do a few saw cuts first. Well athletes warm up their muscles don't they? You can always gang a few scrap pieces and see how that goes. I have quite a collection of very thick wooden hair combs now too. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted July 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 A couple of questions from Kirby: 1. He talks about splitting the knife line on the end grain of the pin board. Everything else I read talks about leaving the line. What am I missing? 2. He suggests using a hammer without padding block to close the joint. Need reassurance before I start waking on bare wood with a hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 ==>I squared straight across That's the important part.. ==>and really close to my angle lines. More of a nice-to have.. ==>when I start in the shop, I grab a piece of scrap and do a few saw cuts first. Well athletes warm up their muscles don't they? I've seen it mentioned in numerous articles, blog posts, etc... If I know I'm going to be sawing at the start of the day (and I remember to think about it), I just make a few cuts in some scrap... Just to get the 'feel' for the saw... I don't use hand-tools all that often, so I need the practice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted July 9, 2014 Report Share Posted July 9, 2014 Read the first four chapters of Kirby's book on dovetails last night. Good stuff. Well, there was the tail board sitting up there all marked out and ready. I did it; I cut 'em. Was surprised how close I was. I'm sure the inaccuracy will show up when I chop out the waste and mark/cut out the pins but for now I'm really happy. It looks like I squared straight across and really close to my angle lines.I hope you're happier than you looked in the picture. I was tempted to send you one of my dove tails so you could see what BAD really looked like to cheer you up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 A couple of questions from Kirby: 1. He talks about splitting the knife line on the end grain of the pin board. Everything else I read talks about leaving the line. What am I missing? 2. He suggests using a hammer without padding block to close the joint. Need reassurance before I start waking on bare wood with a hammer. You leave the lines on the board you saw first, in Kirby's methodology that will be the tail board. This is so you can SEE if you've sawn twist into the joints. If you saw a bit away from the lines , tidy up to the lines with the chisel before you mark the second half of the joint. Once you have a quality set of tails, that board IS NEVER TOUCHED AGAIN. Mark out the pin board with a knife or a very sharp awl. The incised lines on the tail board are 'split' in this sense: the blade is just to the waste side causing some loss of marked line during sawing. A bit of wood just crumbles away on the outside of the incised line. Don't use a hammer to tap them down unless you own a profoundly bell-faced hammer. I use a piece of very soft pine and tap them down with a hammer though with the pine as a cushion. I'd ignore the blowhards over at Woodcentral if I were you. Ian Kirby has forgotten more about woodworking than they'll ever know having done a formal apprenticeship at the Barnsley Workshop in Great Britain and working wood and teaching professionally since then - the 1960s if I'm not mistaken. Practice the cuts per Kirby, then practice the joint, then cut it on live project stock. If you can't make the practice cuts perfectly the joints won't be any better. How could they? You must practice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Charles, your are sounding very yoda "Practice the cuts per Kirby, then practice the joint, then cut it on live project stock. If you can't make the practice cuts perfectly the joints won't be any better. How could they? You must practice. " Read the first four chapters of Kirby's book on dovetails last night. Good stuff. When I got back from an appointment I went out to the garage with the best intentions. Was going to gang cut but first I was going to do some of the practice exercises out of Kirby. Well, there was the tail board sitting up there all marked out and ready. I did it; I cut 'em. Was surprised how close I was. I'm sure the inaccuracy will show up when I chop out the waste and mark/cut out the pins but for now I'm really happy. It looks like I squared straight across and really close to my angle lines. I'm delighted by the good start Tony, keep the faith and listen to Yoda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekcohen Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Graham, your calm and restrained manner is always a breath of fresh air. Thanks. Charles, I was one of those "blowhards" who offered advice. I think that the Kirby book does not present well. There are better books around. Actually, a video is better than any book. Tony clearly found Kirby's advice confusing. That is not a criticism of Ian Kirby, per se, whom I have followed for decades. Tony, you need to walk before you can run. Firstly, you need to master preparing and marking out the boards you will use for dovetailing. Secondly, you need to be sure that you can saw to a marked line. The former comes with diligence, the latter comes with practice. I would not be practicing on a show wood unless I was fairly confident that I had the skills to do the job. In this case, the skills come from sawing to a line. For myself, the difficulty I have sawing to a line is vision. My ageing eyes struggle to see knifed lines in dark wood. For this reason I developed a method using blue tape: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfblindDovetailsinJarrah.html Here is what I wrote on WC: Assuming you are sawing tails first (I do), then you can mark out with a pen or pencil. I would recommend that you make the top lines with a knife as well, and use these to guide the saw. The most important saw cut is this one and it MUST BE PERFECTLY SQUARE to the board. [i will add, as Charles wrote, once you have completed the tail board, leave it alone! No modifications to the tail board, ever]. Once you have removed the tail waste, all subsequent marking MUST BE WITH A KNIFE. Throw away the pencil at this stage. The pencil line is too wide. A knifed line is really thin. Now here is the thing: You plan to saw INSIDE the waste side of the line. The further you saw inside that line, the more the pin will be too small for the tail (tight). If you can saw right up against a line scribed with a knife, then you should have a perfect, first-time fit. (OK, this is to aim for. In reality you just want to get as close as possible, and then, as Bill suggested, pare to the line with a chisel). At this stage in your game, your dovetails are not going to compete with Rob Cosman's. Instead, think of them as a way of recording the start of your journey. It does not matter that they are rough now - they will continue to improve, and improve as time passes. That is the way it was for all of us. Regards from Perth Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted July 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Was excited about these, now not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 ==>My ageing eyes struggle to see knifed lines in dark wood I watched a demo where the instructor clipped-on a set of magnifier lenses... I tried his set, and it worked great... Even though I can see the line perfectly well, using magnifiers improved my sawing... Don't know it it was the magnifiers themselves or some physiological mindset thing, but it improved my 'focus' on the task at hand... Probably a bit of both... Can't be sure, but the results were there, so can't ignore the method... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Was excited about these, now not so much. Barring going to North Bennett Street School or its equivalent, you'd be well advised to get your information from books, articles, and videos from recognized professionals. Ian Kirby's approach is but one that has stood the test of time, Tage Frid and Jim Kingshott both have dovetailing videos that are 'can't miss.' Vintage articles from Fine Woodworking's black and white days are available on its website. An article by Alphonse Mattia comes immediately to mind. Articles and videos from currently practicing professional craftsmen can be found here: http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/how-to-cut-dovetail-joinery.aspx I still have found no source that covers the subject in as much depth as the Ian Kirby book I have already mentioned, but that doesn't mean other professionals have not put out plenty information on the subject, certainly enough to get a creditable set of joints cut in your own shop. Unless the likes of a Phil Lowe or Gary Rogowski show up here to walk you through it it's time to tune all of us out and get serious about learning one of woodworking's most important joints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Slack, this may not help at all and my approach has changed a bit, however. Start here http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Dovetail/ and you can go step by step. It worked just fine for my tool chest, which was pine, and had just over 100 of the little devils. The hardest part you'll have is finding a method that you want to stick with. Everyone will have good advice. I suggest the A Team route, lock yourself in a barn with basic tools, then start the music, bust outta the shop with a dutch chest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted July 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Bad day for me in more ways than one. The cutting went so well, the banging of the chisel while my PTSD was raging and thus leading to my baseline jumping back went not so well. For practice I'm going to do the simple one dovetail per corner box from Paul Seller's master classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 ==>do the simple one dovetail per corner box from Paul Seller's master classes There's another well-known instructor with a variation... Teaches a one box-joint box first --i.e. learn to saw square to the face. After a few of those, then the one dovetail box... Saw it at a hand-tool class given during WIA... Wasn't Cosman, wasn't Klausz... Going to drive me crazy trying to remember... Someone will chime-in with the answer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Slack, you have to get the material out from in front of where you're chopping or the wedge-effect of the chisel will move the baseline as you appear to understand. I use a chisel ground and honed at about 20* for chopping and paring dovetails and don't mind one bit touching it up frequently. Less angle, less wedge effect. Once you position the chisel in the baseline for that last chop frankly there ought to be so little material left that the last chop can be a fairly easy push with the chisel. I.E. no chop at all once the chisel is wedged in the baseline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan S Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Bad day for me in more ways than one. The cutting went so well, the banging of the chisel while my PTSD was raging and thus leading to my baseline jumping back went not so well. For practice I'm going to do the simple one dovetail per corner box from Paul Seller's master classes. I'l like to suggest an alternative, mill some boards 18" long, 3" wide and half an inch thick. then do the following. 1. Make a dovetail joint using two boards 2. examine the joint for mistakes you can learn from. 3. go to the table-saw and cut the dovetails off 4. repeat steps 1 through 3 Making a box is great if you need a box, but if you just need practice a box wastes a lot of wood and time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 What is a PTSD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Post Traumatic Stress (I refuse to call it a disorder) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Cheers Derek :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CStanford Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 DanS, your suggested practice methodology is a good one and mirrors Ian Kirby's, verbatim, for all intents and purposes. Once a few practice boards indicate a high likelihood of success for all that follows, the next step is to make a 3D object to understand the dovetail layout one will need to actually make something other than two boards at 90* to each other. Once a basic box is successful (who doesn't need a few extra boxes around the shop?) then one is more or less cleared for takeoff save for a few warmup cuts (see Gary Rogowski's warmup routine) before any dovetail session. If Rogowski warms up, we should all warm up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshC1501 Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 I am getting pretty good with the method I learned from Marc Adams. It's a little slower but u always get a chance for them to fit using your chisel. Pins first, cut tails inside the waste area leaving your knife line. Then pare to the line on each tail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wilkins Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Gave a few sacks at the waste in the dovetails I had put aside back in the summer- yes these very same. Still need to pare back to the baseline but they turned out better than I had hoped. Hopefully it won't be moths before I cut the pins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Slack, if you're a guild member, Marc did a Krenov display stand where he used dovetails. His method may be a little elementary (and I say that as a compliment) in that it took a little longer than some of these 90 sec. dovetail guys, but thank goodness, that's the way Marc teaches. Anyway, I followed his lead and my first thru dt's came out respectable and my blind dt's were better than I thought I was capable of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yanis Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I have always been terrified of dovetails but when I finally built up enough courage to give it a go I found that all you need is a sharp saw, sharp chisel, a critical eye and practice. There appear to be more ways to cut dovetails that your actual woodworkers but I am liking the hand cut technique. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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