Pax saws or other reasonable priced panel saws


JimB1

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So I am thinking about starting the hand tool school at www.renaissancewoodworker.com maybe in the fall. He has a list of stuff needed at http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/getting-started-hand-tool-list/and I have a good chunk of the items but I just don't use panel saws so I don't have any. I can't afford to drop $500 on 2 saws this year so I have a choice. I can go for maybe $250 - $300 for the pair (rip and cc) and try and get something intermediate but decent like the Pax or Lynx, go cheap and get something like the Putsch saws at Woodcraft, and hold off on good stuff like Lie Nielsen or Wenzloff for now. Or try and find a reputable seller of used and get a good older set of saws that doesn't break the bank.

Unfortunately I am not to experienced in the antique route and I don't want the hobby of fixing antique stuff. I do have a couple of usable antique hand planes that didn't require too much to get them up and running (Stanley Bailey 3 and 5) but I have a Miller's Falls (about a Stanley 4 sized) that I have never been happy with, so mixed experiences with antique stuff. If I go that route, I need to make sure I am buying from someone who is honest and can tell me if what I am getting is in good, working condition.

So anyone used the Pax, Lynx or Putsch saws? Or have another good low to mid range price option? I am OK with sharpening as long as they are decent enough steel to do that. So good but dull out of the box is not a problem.

Let me know what you think...

Thanks

-Jim

PS. It's really funny but I made this exact post a couple of years ago when I was just building my tool collection up and still haven't gotten any panel saws. I went electric for the most part for my cutting needs but now I am actually thinking about the class so I'd need to go back to thinking hand tools. Funny how these things work out....

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I have a Pax saw that I bought a few decades ago.  The steel is good, and can be sharpened fine, but then, don't know about now, the teeth were just punched and not very sharp when it came. 

 

If you are going to use a hand saw to amount to anything, you will either need to have some place that can sharpen it, or learn to do it yourself.    Sandvik saws are serviceably sharp if you can find NOS still in the sleeve, which do come up frequently on ebay.   Even those can be sharpened by hand way sharper than the way they come.  

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I have a Pax saw that I bought a few decades ago.  The steel is good, and can be sharpened fine, but then, don't know about now, the teeth were just punched and not very sharp when it came. 

 

If you are going to use a hand saw to amount to anything, you will either need to have some place that can sharpen it, or learn to do it yourself.    Sandvik saws are serviceably sharp if you can find NOS still in the sleeve, which do come up frequently on ebay.   Even those can be sharpened by hand way sharper than the way they come.

Thanks for the info. Does this look reasonable? I can't tell if it's rip or crosscut...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SWEDISH-SANDVIK-277-DOUBLE-DRAGON-HAND-SAW-7T-8P-26-650-mm-W-SLEEVE-/151669713512?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2350382a68

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So I am thinking about starting the hand tool school at www.renaissancewoodworker.com maybe in the fall. He has a list of stuff needed at http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/getting-started-hand-tool-list/and I have a good chunk of the items but I just don't use panel saws so I don't have any. I can't afford to drop $500 on 2 saws this year so I have a choice. I can go for maybe $250 - $300 for the pair (rip and cc) and try and get something intermediate but decent like the Pax or Lynx, go cheap and get something like the Putsch saws at Woodcraft, and hold off on good stuff like Lie Nielsen or Wenzloff for now. Or try and find a reputable seller of used and get a good older set of saws that doesn't break the bank.

Unfortunately I am not to experienced in the antique route and I don't want the hobby of fixing antique stuff. I do have a couple of usable antique hand planes that didn't require too much to get them up and running (Stanley Bailey 3 and 5) but I have a Miller's Falls (about a Stanley 4 sized) that I have never been happy with, so mixed experiences with antique stuff. If I go that route, I need to make sure I am buying from someone who is honest and can tell me if what I am getting is in good, working condition.

So anyone used the Pax, Lynx or Putsch saws? Or have another good low to mid range price option? I am OK with sharpening as long as they are decent enough steel to do that. So good but dull out of the box is not a problem.

Let me know what you think...

Thanks

-Jim

PS. It's really funny but I made this exact post a couple of years ago when I was just building my tool collection up and still haven't gotten any panel saws. I went electric for the most part for my cutting needs but now I am actually thinking about the class so I'd need to go back to thinking hand tools. Funny how these things work out....

 

Hi Jim-

 

If I were going to pick up a couple of saws at once, and I didn't want to spend a ton of cash I would look at the Veritas Molded Spine saws.

 

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42884&p=68511&ap=1

 

They seem to be a very decent saw for the money. For 220 beans you can pick up a set of 3 saws, dovetail, crosscut and tenon. :)

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Yeah but he's looking for a panel saw, Gary...those are joinery saws and they all have backs.

 

I admire your gumption...but if you're like most people, you'll find yourself wondering why you're ripping and resawing by hand after about...oh, 15 minutes of it.  If I were you, I'd wait until I could afford higher-quality saws, and then if (when) you find it's a ridiculous notion to do all that work by hand when a bandsaw can do it in a fraction of the time and effort, you can resell the saws and recoup most of your expense.

 

Some hand work is fun and rewarding...some is not.  That's just reality.  My guess is that Shannon uses his bandsaw and planer more often than you think...he admits as much on fairly frequent occasion. 

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Yeah but he's looking for a panel saw, Gary...those are joinery saws and they all have backs.

 

I admire your gumption...but if you're like most people, you'll find yourself wondering why you're ripping and resawing by hand after about...oh, 15 minutes of it.  If I were you, I'd wait until I could afford a higher-quality saw, and then if (when) you find it's a ridiculous notion to do all that work by hand when a bandsaw can do it in a fraction of the time and effort, you can resell the saw and recoup most of your expense.

 

Some hand work is fun and rewarding...some is not.  That's just reality.  My guess is that Shannon uses his bandsaw and planer more often than you think...he admits as much on fairly frequent occasion. 

 

Yeah, I totally mis-read that. I thought he said he needed back saws. I plead insanity.

 

But yeah, on that note. I have to agree with Eric here. I really admire the all hand tool guys, but man, I just cannot bring myself to rip and crosscut boards by hand. I bought some decent panel saws on eBay, used them a couple of times, then hung them on the wall. That's where they still are. :D

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And it should be noted...just because you plan to join the Hand Tool School and make a concerted effort to learn more hand skills doesn't mean you have to lose your freakin' mind.  I subscribed to a few semesters of HTS, and I picked up some good info.  I use the techniques that are in some way superior to machines, and I ignore those that aren't.  Don't let nostalgia cloud your judgment...you don't HAVE to go full-blooded caveman if you don't want to.  There are no rules about that.

 

That said, some guys do enjoy ripping a six foot board or resawing by hand.  Some people like jumping out of airplanes too.  I'll never understand them, either.  Different strokes I suppose.

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Jim, first a little semantics.  A panel saw by defition is a backless saw between 18 and 24" long.  It is intended to be used on already planed boards about 3/4" and under, AKA panels.  For rough work and breaking down stock we use the generically termed "hand saw".  These are the saws that are 24-28" (and longer) that are toother for rough sawn material and thicker stuff.  Currently there are very few manufacturers of actual hand saws.  I know many makers looking into it but it is a difficult proposition frought with peril! 

 

So regarding the PAX saws, I have hundreds of members who have bought them and are happy with them.  Personally I find the handle clunky and the steel to be a bit thin.  BUT, these are rough cut tools and the accuracy that comes from higher quality steel and glove fit handles just isn't necessary here. 

 

But there are good antique options.  I'm like you I don't enjoy restoring tools but when I buy anything from Josh Clark at Hyperkitten.com, Ed Lebetkin at The Woodwright School, or Jim Bode at Jim Bode Tools I just need to sharpen it and get to work.  Sometimes I don't even have to do that much.  All of these guys would be worth an email or phone call to tell them what you want and if they don't have it they will find it.  If you buy only one I recommend a crosscut saw.

 

In fact when it comes to getting into hand tools in general, I suggest going slow on the buying tools.  You may find that you don't enjoy certain aspects of hand work and nothing is worse than the remorse from buying a tool you don't use.  The lessons in HTS are actually in a logical order that will use very few tools and add as you go along.  This being said, I do view saws as fundamental so at least one hand saw and something like a carcass saw will be needed right away.

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Bad Axe will sharpen and tune saws pretty reasonably. I'd consider vintage and send them to Mark. Careful not to get one that's too old though. I sent him a pre-civil war Disston and the saw plate was too brittle to set the teeth. So he replaced the saw plate and it's crazy how great that saw cuts. And he did it for $100. He stays pretty busy so there might be a few weeks wait. Not sure how far off your class is. Sharpening starts at $45. Retoothing and sharpening is $60. You could pick up a vintage saw for $50 or so, send it to him and have a saw every bit as good as those $300 saws. Mark has always been very good about answering emails and phone calls so you could drop him one and let him know what you are looking for and I'm sure he'd give you some guidance. I know he's got Handworks this weekend so it might be best to hit him up Monday or Tuesday. Good luck! I'm jealous about the class. Hope we get a full review when you get back.

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Looking at them where you can see closer pictures on amazon they do not seem like they are terribly good in terms of being able to be sharpened and serviced for a long life.  They look like they have a different temper on the tooth vs back so might not be cut effectively by a file to be sharpened.

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I'd hold out for Disston or Akins, and not the newer stuff with harsh corners on the handle but the older ones where the grip is completed rounded. My handsaws are both Disston that I got from Jon Zimmers for about $125 each and they were both cleaned up and then sharpened by Mike Wenzloff. The other suppliers that Shannon mention are also good places to check. If you pick up a saw that needs reconditioned I can't imagine any better place for you to send them than Bob Rozaieski for sharpening as your are both in NJ and he only charges $20 per saw to sharpen.

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Looking at them where you can see closer pictures on amazon they do not seem like they are terribly good in terms of being able to be sharpened and serviced for a long life.  They look like they have a different temper on the tooth vs back so might not be cut effectively by a file to be sharpened.

 

That's why I linked to them. They are cheap, last a long time. If you decide you don't like using handsaws they will be good for general use/diy. Saws that can be sharpened are great but not essential.

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That's why I linked to them. They are cheap, last a long time. If you decide you don't like using handsaws they will be good for general use/diy. Saws that can be sharpened are great but not essential.

Those types of saws are a false economy and if we're lucky they get recycled instead of turned into landfill. While they do work well for cutting construction lumber, MDF, and plywood, they are not good at ripping solid wood and the kerf they make is wide enough to turn a car around in. I'd hate to think that someone trying to get into hand tools would determine that they do or don't like using quality hand saws based on the experience of using a modern induction hardened saw.

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That's an eight point crosscut.  It's a little pricey at that price, but looks like a good one.  I have several of those.  It will cut a 2x4 in seven or eight strokes with factory sharpening.  It's not a panel saw, but a full length saw.  There are some 10 pt. 20" saws similar to that one, but they don't come up as frequently as the full length ones.

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Well, I have some time to watch for something decent and be opportunistic in my purchases. I'll check around with some of the dealer's you named Shannon and keep an eye out for anything that looks useful on eBay or craigslist over the next month or two.

Thanks for the info about panel vs hand saws. I never realized hand saw was an actual type. I just figured a long-ish saw without a back was a panel saw and they just came in different lengths and tooth count.

I actually do have a smallish craftsman handsaw (15" or something) of the cheap $10 variety that does get occasional crosscut usage for junky boards or quick cut offs of messed up ends if I just have one or two cuts to do but it's a really rough cut, it is fast though. I doubt it's something that can be sharpened well...

Thanks for all the info.

-Jim

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"Those types of saws are a false economy and if we're lucky they get recycled instead of turned into landfill. While they do work well for cutting construction lumber, MDF, and plywood, they are not good at ripping solid wood and the kerf they make is wide enough to turn a car around in. I'd hate to think that someone trying to get into hand tools would determine that they do or don't like using quality hand saws based on the experience of using a modern induction hardened saw."

 

Hi Steve

 

Peoples experiences differ. They are available in different grades, coarse and fine but agreed not so hot for ripping. They will be sharper and in better condition than most ebay saws. I have to disagree and say they are quality saws. We all use them within our workshop and have wonderful results. A typical hobbyist will take a long time to make one blunt. I worked with a couple of guys who were in their late 50's when I started work. They had quality saws (sandvick) from their apprenticeship. One had moved over to hardpoints, the other still liked to sharpen their own. Both were fine craftsmen with high skill levels.

 

I love my traditional saws too but files, saw sets, the time to learn how to keep them sharp all have their cost.

 

Here's some more thoughts on them from David Savage, possibly one of the finest modern makers. I've copied his thoughts below but they can be found at http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/woodworking_tools.htm.

 

"Very largely around the bench there are only three saws that can be of use to you. One would be a relatively cheap hard pointed saw either made by Jack or Stanley, many of these saws are sold as tradesman's saws, they are cheap, efficient and cannot be more highly recommended. I have a hand made pre-war Disston panel saw that was recommended as the very height of saw makers art. This is not as good as these cheap modern throw away saws. I hate to say it but its true. The more expensive hand made Disston saws these days don't perform the job as well as these modern hard point saws."

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Graham the Pragmatist wins this round.  It's not a tool that will ever be found in my shop for a multitude of reasons...but the argument is sound and the proof is in the pudding.  Besides, he works for Pop Wood...so you must obey. :D

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Chris Schwarz caries a new made in USA Stanley with him to classes and such. It looked so out of place that I asked him on the side what the deal was. He is open to letting anyone use his tools but he's very particular about his good panel saws. So he leaves them at home. He said the Stanleys were decent enough and cheap so no big deal if someone kinked it.

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I also use a hard point saw and find it superb to crosscut and occasional ripping of thin stock. The modern ones cut on forward and rearwards strokes - they never used to - and are extremely sharp.

I do have a problem ripping thicker stock with them though. For instance I had to resaw an oak board that was 6" wide by 2" thick by 3 feet long as my bandsaw had broken. I was making a bookmatch to make 2 6" wide boards 1" ish thick. I don't have a panel rip saw or a bowsaw so used a hardpoint. Man that was hard work but it did it. I really wish they did manufacture western hard point saws designed for ripping. I've not come across them though :(

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If you are game for an experiment, take a look at a garden hard point saw. They often figure a large gullet every few teeth to help carry waste away. I find ripping with a hard point packs the teeth precisely because it cuts on both strokes. I also find cheap hard points can be difficult to start at times as the tooth geometry is consistent all the way along the plate with no benefit to back draw except for your arm mechanics.

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