Methen Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 A True Professional wood worker is just as concerned about what cannot be seen as they are as to what will be seen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Depends on the professional wood worker And the time in Question. I saw a beautiful french desk exhibit at a local gallery. Not one was finished in the back. Many still had band saw marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mds2 Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Depends on the professional wood worker. Yep. My question is, if it's never seen what does it matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Depends if he/she intends to pull profit... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm definately not a "professional" woodworker, but if I make something and a fellow woodworker, or anyone for that matter, turns it inside out looking at it, I want the inside to look as good as the outside. And the little extra also gives me added experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chet Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Also You can be a true professional but still have the restraints of the client's design and budget criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 "Professional" only has to do with payment. Craftsmanship excellence is another question. I've done things with excellence for which I have never been remunerated and vice-versa. Excellence is craftsmanship frequently shows up later. It's that question of "fit & finish" we hear now and then. For practical purpose I like to get things "right" even though they may not be "perfect." The attached photo is what I do day-to-day. You might say that the photography is excellent. I say it's "good" but could be better. A little time cleaning each piece to perfection + a bit more in PS and there it is. The issue is that 95% vs 100% weighing of cost vs result. I can get 95% for fraction the cost of 100%. I could build new lighting, get a better camera/lens combo, etc., etc., etc. I'll settle for a generally excellent product. Some want more and in those cases they need to be willing to pay the price. Today in my woodworking I am not a point where I can charge those rates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Depends on what your definition of "professional" is. Technically it's just someone who makes a living woodworking. And there are a lot of professional woodworkers out there who don't give a rat's ass about the quality of a build. Krenov used to say amateurs were the best woodworkers. Not in the sense that they didn't know what they were doing...but in the sense that they built for their own satisfaction, they pursued perfection because that's the only way to build. They took however much time was necessary to do things right. Receiving money for a piece that he or she built was secondary, almost incidental. It's a tough row to hoe to make a living working that way, but if you're asking if a piece should be built to the best of one's ability - always? You're damn right. And that's why I don't take commissions, because people in general are not willing to pay for my attention to every detail and the time it takes to do things right. I don't have it in me to half-ass something when a client wants to cut corners to save a buck. Won't do it. Can't. I feel sorry for those "professional" woodworkers out there - which is almost all of them - who have to compromise their integrity to make a living. But kids have to eat, so I get it. There are much easier ways to make a living. Sorry for the rant. "I'm an amateur and always will be. That's the way I want to die. I'm an amateur by nature and I'm an amateur in fact." - James Krenov 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I don't know, no offense but it seems like kind of a silly question. But overall I guess I disagree with the statement. Last time I checked the undersides of my wood floors aren't sanded, sealed and finished. does that mean my flooring guys are unprofessional? Countless of examples of furniture from the "old masters" used secondary woods for inner parts and dovetails that many would consider gappy. Wasting a clients money on time/materials that don't add to form, function, usability or durability might be considered unethical by some. So if you are using the word "professional" to denote someone who works with integrity, I'd say a true professional provides value for money. How you define value is really between the customer and the builder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I disagree as well.. We've all had times where there is an "ugly" side to a board either because of color, grain, or damage that we've turned to the unseen portion of the build. I do try to put some finish on the inside but, I certainly don't go thru the same sanding/finishing steps that I do on the "seen" portion of a piece. If that makes me unprofessional, then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 "No true x" does ring of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. But that's another thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Eric nailed it. The professional knows what matters and when for the profession. The craftsman knows what matters and when for the craft. The amateur works for self satisfaction and ranges all over the spectrum. The discussion has been beaten many times before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I don't know, no offense but it seems like kind of a silly question. But overall I guess I disagree with the statement. Last time I checked the undersides of my wood floors aren't sanded, sealed and finished. does that mean my flooring guys are unprofessional? Countless of examples of furniture from the "old masters" used secondary woods for inner parts and dovetails that many would consider gappy. Wasting a clients money on time/materials that don't add to form, function, usability or durability might be considered unethical by some. So if you are using the word "professional" to denote someone who works with integrity, I'd say a true professional provides value for money. How you define value is really between the customer and the builder. I disagree as well.. We've all had times where there is an "ugly" side to a board either because of color, grain, or damage that we've turned to the unseen portion of the build. I do try to put some finish on the inside but, I certainly don't go thru the same sanding/finishing steps that I do on the "seen" portion of a piece. If that makes me unprofessional, then so be it. I can't imagine the OP had these examples in mind when he asked the question..."B" sides of a board, secondary woods, etc...these are totally acceptable parts of woodworking. Sloppy joinery I kind of take issue with because it can lead to joint failure. But cosmetically...anyone who worries about an ugly spot on the underside of a table top has OCD issues he needs to resolve before he worries about anything else. I think the question is: Is it okay to cut corners and do sloppy work when people will never see it? And I think the answer to that is categorically NO...regardless of whether you're a pro or a hobbyist. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. That's my philosophy anyway. I don't get satisfaction out of doing...anything...if it's crap work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardA Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 When I was building my queen size bed, I had to dry fit some of it in my driveway... My neighbor walked over and asked why I was sanding the cross pieces that would hold the box springs, he said no one will see it..... I thought a minute then said, It's my bed, and the only way it goes in my bedroom is if it's done right! Is that an explanation? I don't know, but I do know, that when I build something, I try not to miss one single spot.... Seen or unseen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el capitán Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I think this will be a single topic/weekend edition show on woodtalk in a few weeks. Long time lurker with 7 post ask a controversial and very vague question. Something is just off a little about that. I think someone that is making a living building furniture will make the highest quality part, as long as it fits in the "budget" of the project, in as little time as possible. That is how profit is generated the old saying time=money is spot on when talking about a small furniture business. The faster you can get a job done, without sacrificing your good "name", the faster you can start another one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 A True Professional wood worker is just as concern about what cannot be seen as they are as to what will be seen... Yeah, I agree. A true professional woodworker should be able to carve a Louis XVI desk from a single piece of wood with the only help of a chisel and a hand made mallet. All other woodworkers are fake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mds2 Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm going to start sanding my tenons to 320. Maybe the inside of the mortise too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm going to start sanding my tenons to 320. Maybe the inside of the mortise too. slacker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Coop Posted June 8, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 Now would be a good time to slip some politics in and no one would ever notice 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpt life Posted June 8, 2015 Report Share Posted June 8, 2015 I am pretty sure the whole thread is religion so why not act like jerks and catch all three no-nos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinF Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I am pretty sure the whole thread is religion so why not act like jerks and catch all three no-nos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 who's going to drop the first F-bomb? Probably the same person who makes a Nazi reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 who's going to drop the first F-bomb? My mamma would whip my butt, then the moderators would whup it agin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 who's going to drop the first F-bomb? Probably most of us if this wasn't a family friendly forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendon_t Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Probably most of us if this wasn't a Family Friendly Forum [/quoteKEV did it... THREE TIMES... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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