..Kev Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Did not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Depends if he/she intends to pull profit... ^^^Quoted for truth. Seriously, there is attention to detail, and then there are wastes of time, effort and efficiencies.... and along with these losses, also goes any hope of profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raefco Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 My Dad owns a body shop (high end restoration), I say all the time he suffers from starving artist syndrome, he can't leave anything alone, nothing is ever good enough and he is not happy if he is making money. Lesson I have learned from this is, 1.) it is not ok to cut corners, but not everyone can afford or deserves a high end restoration, it is not necessity and therefore if you can not pay you do not get it. 2.) There are several levels of quality one can achieve that do not include cutting corners. My time is money, I will give you as much of my time as you can afford but one needs to be aware of the principle of diminishing returns. …and just where do you cross the line where 99% of the population have no idea what you are talking about or showing them even after a detailed explanation? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I do pyro (legally) and this includes making pyrotechnic effects. My workmanship isn't just on the underside of a table or the back of a desk. More than 99.9% of the people who see my work never see the shell before it launches, and it gets blown for you and I to view it correctly. I still pay a very great level of attention to the detail of the paper as it is worked around the shell. Here's an acquaintance of mine with a few of his shells - he can quite literally spend months working on these, I think I heard him tell me he had 6 or 8 months in a 16" shell once.: Image Copyright Tom Niesen, appears in Wired Online, DIY Fireworks Blow Away Factory-Made Displays Do you think anyone will know how beautifully crafted these are? Mike Swisher, a mentor to a lot of us amateur pyros, would say the craftsmanship displayed in construction is shown in the sky. That may be true but do you think the final wrapping in colored designs shows up in the sky? Of course not - Tom does it for his enjoyment. Most of you will never see shells of this quality being displayed. It's not just that Italian-inspired shells are more rare, it's that they cannot compete commercially with the shells we import from China. Any of you who work for a living doing ANYTHING can understand the concept of what something that took you 6 months to create would cost. There are commercial shells in this style (I almost said "like this", that would be a lie) and even created with larger manufacturing processes they still are quite pricey. That commercial manufacturer is another acquaintance and he was on Dirty Jobs demonstrating his successful pyro business making the jump from craftsman to pro. Even with "mass" production (and I would still argue Albert is a craftsman) his shells are roughly double to triple the price of similarly sized chinese imports. There's no comparison of course in quality and variety. If I take the number of people who belong to the Pyrotechnics guild worldwide, if I assume that represents those who might see a difference (and most of them will not either), and then contrast that to the number of people in the US, you end up with about 0.001% of people in the US being "qualified observers." But we still do it. So, woodworking is no different than pyro, which in turn is likely no different than any of a large number of historically significant crafts which have examples in the commercial space as well as craftsman space. If I were to have a conversation with Albert and somehow diminish the pyro equivalent of "not finishing the back of a desk," he would either be silent (most likely) or quietly explain to me how I didn't understand business. Just because a desk is not finished in the back does not mean the woodworker was not a craftsman, and it does not mean that he or she is not capable of creating art. It probably means that they didn't intend for you to look at the back of the desk. Who does that?! I understand why some of you finish sand the slats that support a bed. I also understand those of you who do this for a living. Don't be a snob - a real Sommelier knows there are perfectly good $10 bottles of wine, and that a $1,000 bottle of wine is not 10 times better. Do what makes you happy, but don't judge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..Kev Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 4th is coming, might need you for a private party 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 4th is coming, might need you for a private party I would imagine it's likely not surprising at all that my 4th of July party is pretty popular. It's a bit like a busman's holiday though - I don't work it anymore (no commercial shows that day) and I don't choreograph my own show. I get a crapton of commercial class C stuff and supervise the kids for the afternoon. At night I supervise the bigger kids (adults are the worst!) with the "select" class C stuff and mix in a few of my own special items here and there. After about 10:30 someone else takes over supervision (one of my trusted/trained friends) and I get to relax and start drinking. My daughter who is now 29 and on her own, always calls me on the 4th to wish me "Merry Christmas" because she knows this is my holiday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Were any of the pictures in the DIY link your shells? Those were some impressive bursts ! I got to help set up and shoot 5 or 6 shows with a friend of a friend who did small shows professionally . Then he went to electronic fired shows and didn't need as much help. 8" was the biggest we got to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missioninwood Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Shouldn't this be a poll? I do NOT agree. miw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Were any of the pictures in the DIY link your shells? Those were some impressive bursts ! No, those are very nice shells though aren't they? All were at the annual PGI conference I believe. That conference, wow, if you don't get enough fireworks in that week you're just not going to ever get enough. I got to help set up and shoot 5 or 6 shows with a friend of a friend who did small shows professionally . Then he went to electronic fired shows and didn't need as much help. 8" was the biggest we got to shoot. I started with hand firing (running down the row with a flare) smaller shows, then went to electronic. If I do any now I do larger choreographed shows but they are all setup and just one button press to start. I really enjoyed those small hand fired ones. You know you are alive when a few of those low-break right over your head. 8" and above now are all electronic. We set those bigger guns up in semi-permanent sand-filled racks on a platform trailer. That thing gets to bouncing when you fire some 8's and 10's. 10's are harder to come by these days as most are classified as 1.1 (high explosives). I just do enough shows now to pay for my permits/licenses/insurance and that's it. If you "have to" do something, it's a lot less fun. Nobody ever gets rich doing shows - you're lucky if you make enough to feed your crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdwerker Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I am a professional. I sand bottom edges to prevent splinters when the piece is being moved (they would probably end up in my hand ! ) When staining and finishing I go ahead and stain the underside,it only takes a few seconds when you are spraying the stain. Backs and undersides get a seal coat of finish to prevent or slow moisture absorption. There again just a quick sprayed coat, not that careful or even neatly. I don't bother trying to get into difficult spots unless it would be visible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Cancelleri Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 who's going to drop the first F-bomb? Ah Festool it! I'll drop it. On a serious note, as a hobbyist I sand both sides, however the unseen or hidden side isn't not given the amount of attention that the visible sides are I'll sand to 120 or 150 and call it done. On the visible side I sand to 180 or 220 where the finish needs to be perfect. If it's a small piece all sides and faces are treated as visible, as people tend to pick up smaller pieces and look at them. I knew a luthier who's motto was "A true luthier doesn't master building an instrument, he masters the ability to hide his mistakes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Janello Posted June 11, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 I was lucky enough to be trained at my trade (plumbing) by a contractor that cared. When we did new homes we drilled out holes where most contractors took out a sawzall. Pipes hidden in walls were mechanical looking and clean. PVC primer wasn't running down the wall of a pipe and copper fittings were wiped completely of flux. A builder wanted a house done faster, and my boss said "well do you want it done right, or want it done twice?" The builder said all he cared about was that the toilet flushed when he pulled the lever. My boss said, get yourself a new Plumber for the next house. Really, what I learned over time was, that doing a job right doesn't take much longer than doing it half assed. Most of the time doing it half assed means doing it twice. My father once told me, never do anything you're afraid to attach your signature to. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tpt life Posted June 11, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 This was one of the most ridiculously ephemeral questions ever asked as was noted in the first few comments. The question was not a "right" or "wrong", but rather the fastidiousness of the standard of the unseen. To be a "true" pro, do you clock hidden screws? Drive the screw, clock it, then glue trim over it? Most here will not cut corners, but is sanding some glue and sawdust into a void cutting a corner or employing a smart fix? The question can never be answered. You pick your standard and buy the pieces that meet the standard. You pick the standard and make the pieces that satisfy you. The standard moves allowing furniture of all price points to hit the market for all income levels of customer. I like what was said above: "Do what makes you happy and don't judge." That said, I would not post work here without fully expecting sharp critique. That has a value. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
collinb Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 4th is coming, might need you for a private party In my back yard ... just one will be more than enough. I do wonder what the fine will be ... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim0625 Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 When you see a woodworking project, there are a few ways to view it but for this topic, its functionality and aesthetics. Steve sands the underside because of splinters - function. He stains the underside because theoretically someone could look there but it's still convenient. If a feature will never be seen, construct it so the functionality is met. Sweat the aesthetics where it will be seen. You can go over the top with anything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wouldwurker Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 A True Professional wood worker is just as concerned about what cannot be seen as they are as to what will be seen... -Yoda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bussy Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So I guess y'all use only A/A grade plywood? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcarswell Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 I'm not a true professional or even above a medium woodworker but that's how I operate. Sorry i can't be more helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_in_SD Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 No one mentioned Steve Jobs. Seems that he was as concerned about what was unseen as what was seen. I agree with many of the posts in that the statement is too broad to be applied universally. It depends on the situation. Finishing the back of a heirloom piece is one thing, finishing the back of a kitchen cabinet is another. Both can be be done with master craftsmanship. Professionalism is more how you approach things rather then the execution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G S Haydon Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 We are talking woodworking and about a question that cannot be answered properly. I think to understand "Perfect" first you need to understand context. Want to make a William & Mary style chest of drawers as they were made then you should work like this http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/good-enough Want to make Krenov style work the above would not work. However both are perfect as both approaches suit the context. The other issue is satisfying what we as individuals want. If it is perfect to us someone else may not deem it so but our opinion is the only thing that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 ==>No one mentioned Steve Jobs. Seems that he was as concerned about what was unseen as what was seen. Interesting, but then how do you explain iTunes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortan D Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 ==>No one mentioned Steve Jobs. Seems that he was as concerned about what was unseen as what was seen. Interesting, but then how do you explain iTunes? I think he means just the hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 ==>I think he means just the hardware. Ahhhhh, so quality is selective... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wouldwurker Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I think he means just the hardware. That reminds me...does anyone want to buy my Apple Lisa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I am kinda surprised this thread is still alive and kicking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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