How on earth to cut this joint

[Brendon_t]

I was talking to an old guy at my work who is an oldtimey wood worker. Talking radial arm saw, belt sanding, ax wielding dude. 

He challenged me to make this joint.  I've already slaughtered two attemps due to just my crappy layout lines. Wondering if anyone has any aah ha tips. 

Do you go socket side first or  stop sign first? Knowing how intricate it's going to be, would light wood, dark wood, or one of each visually help cover any imperfections.

[ColinF]

I'd do the stop sign first then use that to layout the "mortise". Of course you could make a template and use a router?

[Coop]

Ok, the challenge is on!

Here's how the old timers did it.

Edited October 8, 2015 by K COOPER

[Llama]

I'll knock one out tomorrow before breakfast.

I'd certainly cut the tenon first. I can't see how to lay out the mortise first, and get proper layout the other way.

This is an interesting thing. I do want to try it soon.

[..Kev]

I would do the mortise first and I would use my HCM.  Then, I would cut the tenon to fit.

[wilburpan]

Believe it or not, these sorts of joints were made by marking the lines on each piece separately, and then cutting each piece individually. There wasn’t any transferring of lines from one piece to another as in making a dovetail joint. If you think about it, these joints were used to join together long beams, which would have been too big to maneuver around to transfer lines. So the accuracy of the layout was key.

You can make things a bit easier for yourself by taking advantage of the parts of the joint that are evenly spaced. On the top, the two stub pieces, the gaps, and the neck of the long stop sign part are even, so divide the beam into five parts and work off of that. On the side, the shoulders are half way down.

Finally, and this is going to be different from how you probably are used to marking joints, strike a center line along the length on the faces of the two parts, and use that as your reference in marking the lines for the joint.

[wtnhighlander]

I'd use pocket screws!

[h3nry]

I was going to say "what is the point? does this joint have a practical use?" but I thought I should actually make one first.

fwiw I cut the tennon first.

A pretty gappy effort, but I was rushing it a bit. However, despite all the gaps it is surprisingly solid, I guess with all that complexity some parts of the joint are bound to be good and tight.

My first piece of advice is use a hardwood - what was I thinking using a softwood scrap to cut a joint like this!

So, back to my original question ... does this joint have a practical use?

Edit:

Since you asked for tips - I thought I'd add some serious ones for you.

0) Make sure your two pieces of wood are perfectly square - and the same width/height.

1) Layout the tenon piece as accurately as possible (I just used a ruler and pencil - hence all the gaps). It doesn't really matter how you layout the stop-sign, since I recommend scribing this onto the mortice piece.

2) Then its fiddly work with the dovetail saw and paring chisel.

2a) Actually I used a coping saw to rough out the tenon, then pared it to shape with a chisel.

3) Once the tennon piece is cut, layout the neck of the mortice, and cut it out just as deep as the stub tennon below the stop-sign.

4) now you can slide the tennon piece onto the mortice piece and scribe in the shape of the stop-sign and the corner cut-outs.

5) Then it's more fiddly work with the dovetail saw and paring chisel.

That's how I did it - no idea how you'd do it with a radial arm saw, belt-sander and axe.

 

[Brendon_t]

Haha yes it has a practical joint. Whoever has a cleaner joint is buying tomorrow at happy hour.

i cut three tonight. First two were damn gappy and ugly. This is the first decent one. Pinned with bamboo and one coat of ars.

being not a hand tool guy, this was a pretty cool exercise. I'd definatey at least giving it a try.  

I changed it do a slight dovetail because on both the first two, the stop sign thing seemed really not strong. One wing actually snapped along the grain line when fitting it together.

and I agree, this joint is strong as crap. The first time it slid home with only mild pressure, it just plain LOCKED.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Brendon_t

[TerryMcK]

Interesting puzzle but probably easy to do with hand tools - no I'm not volunteering - maybe in the future though - who knows....

[wtnhighlander]

Brendon, good call on the dovetail shape. Looks better to me, and I bet it fits easier that the hexagon original. Now my question is, under what circumstances would someone used this joint? Timber framing, maybe? I can't come up with any furniture pieces that would benefit from it.

[Janello]

I can see this useful as a repair joint, similar to a scarf. Pro's- Stronger than a scarf  Con's- More visible. 

Might also be a nifty way to attach a foot to a table leg. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by Janello

[Brendon_t]

Interesting puzzle but probably easy to do with hand tools -

that's what I thought, until I screwed up two. 

[ColinF]

Brendon, good call on the dovetail shape. Looks better to me, and I bet it fits easier that the hexagon original. Now my question is, under what circumstances would someone used this joint? Timber framing, maybe? I can't come up with any furniture pieces that would benefit from it.

maybe if you want to tie in another wood species for added visual effects, like maple in the middle of a table apron made of walnut to lighten the piece up color wise. 

[Tom Cancelleri]

For some odd reason I want to try this now. I'm betting hcm would make quick work of this Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

[CubsFan]

Now I want to get the book.  I can't find one that looks like that, the only one I see was this:  https://www.bookdepository.com/Art-Japanese-Joinery-Kiyoshi-Seike/9780834815162

Know what the book in the picture is?

[Eric.]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007055QIY?keywords=japanese joinery kiyosi seike&qid=1444501428&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

 

I have it.  It's a neat book just to look at but it's not really a "how to."  A lot of timber frame joints, scarf joints, and craziness that is both rarely used and rarely needed.  But still cool.

The one you linked appears to be a newer edition.  I would assume the same content.

[wtnhighlander]

Where's Don when you need him? I'm sure he has a shaper set up to cut that! ?

[Coop]

Haha yes it has a practical joint. Whoever has a cleaner joint is buying tomorrow at happy hour.

i cut three tonight. First two were damn gappy and ugly. This is the first decent one. Pinned with bamboo and one coat of ars.

being not a hand tool guy, this was a pretty cool exercise. I'd definatey at least giving it a try.  

I changed it do a slight dovetail because on both the first two, the stop sign thing seemed really not strong. One wing actually snapped along the grain line when fitting it together.

and I agree, this joint is strong as crap. The first time it slid home with only mild pressure, it just plain LOCKED.

Good job!

[RichardA]

       The only use that I can see is the appearance.  Using two different woods that compliment each other, would bring a visual interest to something that you wouldn't expect.. Kinda like a teenager's "eye candy" to we wood folks!  And Brendan, ya done good!

[Brendon_t]

I could see using it to attach some claw foot style carved bases to a table or other piece of furniture

[Eric.]

You guys must have glossed right over Wilbur's post...frankly the only one worth reading in this entire thread: that joint is essentially a scarf joint for joining long beams in traditional Japanese timber framing.  It wasn't designed to be used in furniture.