Underbuilding/Overbuilding: Design Best Practices?

[Al Capwn]

Alright, here is another set of newbie questions/topic.

So first question, what are some general best practices or guidelines to ensure that a project is not over or under built? For example, I made the "mistake" of using 3/4" ply for fairly narrow drawers for a piece of shop furniture. Now, of course, in retrospect the drawers are too bulky. On the other hand, I was concerned about the construction being flimsy and weight being placed on 1/4" ply drawer bottom material.

With that being said: Are there any general rules in regards to weight bearing for drawers? What about for drawer slides/guides; is there a guide or checklist of "DOs and DONT's"? Even practical experience would be useful, as I don't want to make a bunch of drawers, only to find out they are underbuilt and the bottoms start to give out, or overbuilt and look clunky and waste material.

Second question:

I am wanting to build a workshop storage/miter saw station, and I am having some head-scratching conundrums on, "What is the best way to do this". I took a basic cabinetry course, so I am fairly comfortable with the whole faceframe+carcase buildout of cabinets, but there is a design that I am looking at is a wee-bit different than the standard sheet good construction that I am used to that I am entertaining.

So, for reference here is the general idea of what I am wanting to put together: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/56504

Here is the style/construction method I want to use: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/43891

However, I am a bit concerned about how to mount the drawer slides in the second design. It would appear that the only mounting points are in the very front or back, otherwise separate rails would need to be made to mount additional drawers. Thoughts?

Third Question (Somewhat Off-Topic):

How frequently do you use your miter saw? Do you find having a dedicated space for it worth it, or do you just make rough cuts and finish at another tool, such as the table saw?

[Dknapp34]

Take a look at the drawers in an old piece of furniture.  If you they did something 100 years ago and it's still around, it was probably done right.   

Unless it's a really big drawer that is going to hold a lot of weight, 1/4" ply for the bottom is probably fine as long as it's properly held inside a dado in the drawer sides and back with enough meat underneath it to give it support.

I only glanced at this, but it looks like it could have some good tips:  http://www.finewoodworking.com/pdf/drawerbuildingbasics.pdf 

[wdwerker]

If a drawer bottom is over 22 X 32 I use 3/8 or 1/2"ply for the bottom. You can rabbet it to fit into a 1/4" dado. 1/2"sides are fine for small drawers, I use 5/8 Baltic  because it actually measures pretty close to 9/16 and 5mm dominos work well to join the corners.

If a drawer is wider than it is deep I use lateral filing cabinet slides with progressive action.

[rodger.]

I just built a load of drawers for a current project (14).  I used 5/8" solid maple with a 1/4" ply bottom.

I like the look and feel of solid wood 5/8.  Works well for 5mm dominos, and it sturdy.

I have the kapex, and use it on almost every project.  Before I had the accuracy of the kapex, I used my bosch cms only on occasion.

Drawer glides can vary. Follow the manufacturer s instructions.  When the instructions are unclear, ask Steve for advice!

[..Kev]

Build it to last a lifetime with proper material and techniques.  If you don't skimp on either then it should serve you well for many generations.

 

[Al Capwn]

I just built a load of drawers for a current project (14).  I used 5/8" solid maple with a 1/4" ply bottom.

I like the look and feel of solid wood 5/8.  Works well for 5mm dominos, and it sturdy.

I have the kapex, and use it on almost every project.  Before I had the accuracy of the kapex, I used my bosch cms only on occasion.

Drawer glides can vary. Follow the manufacturer s instructions.  When the instructions are unclear, ask Steve for advice!

If you don't mind me asking, what were the dimensions of your drawers? I am curious as to what amount of stress 1/4" ply can withstand vs. 1/2".

How much of an accuracy differential between the Kapex and Bosch? The Bosch seems like a pretty well-regarded CMS, so I am a bit surprised. Is it a "game changer" like the Domino is - I have heard of a lot of good things about it, just want to know if the hype is real.

If a drawer bottom is over 22 X 32 I use 3/8 or 1/2"ply for the bottom. You can rabbet it to fit into a 1/4" dado. 1/2"sides are fine for small drawers, I use 5/8 Baltic  because it actually measures pretty close to 9/16 and 5mm dominos work well to join the corners.

If a drawer is wider than it is deep I use lateral filing cabinet slides with progressive action.

Thanks Steve! I'll jot that down for reference.

[rodger.]

If you don't mind me asking, what were the dimensions of your drawers? I am curious as to what amount of stress 1/4" ply can withstand vs. 1/2".

How much of an accuracy differential between the Kapex and Bosch? The Bosch seems like a pretty well-regarded CMS, so I am a bit surprised. Is it a "game changer" like the Domino is - I have heard of a lot of good things about it, just want to know if the hype is real.

Thanks Steve! I'll jot that down for reference.

Drawers width designed to fit a festool sustainer, so 16 15/16 wide, and I went 20" long.  I loaded them up with heavy stuff, seems to be no problem.  Slides are rated for 100 lbs.

As for the bosch, I didn't have new miter glide in my shop.  I had a 10" slider.  It's a good saw, but its footprint is large, it a dust monster, and its not nearly as accurate as the kapex.

[ponderingturtle]

If you don't mind me asking, what were the dimensions of your drawers? I am curious as to what amount of stress 1/4" ply can withstand vs. 1/2".

How much of an accuracy differential between the Kapex and Bosch? The Bosch seems like a pretty well-regarded CMS, so I am a bit surprised. Is it a "game changer" like the Domino is - I have heard of a lot of good things about it, just want to know if the hype is real.

Thanks Steve! I'll jot that down for reference.

Marc is currently comparing the Bosch glide 12" to his old Kapex as part of his use more affordable tools to not alienate viewers as much.  He seemed to like it and find it was accurate though it does not have as good dust collection out of the box.

[xxdabroxx]

Somewhat related:  Where do you guys buy cabinet hardware?  I've never bought any before but will need some slides and hinges soon for a bathroom vanity build. 

[ottacat]

Third Question (Somewhat Off-Topic):

How frequently do you use your miter saw? Do you find having a dedicated space for it worth it, or do you just make rough cuts and finish at another tool, such as the table saw?

I don't have a mitre saw. I find them imprecise, take up space in my shop I can better use for other tools and are horrid at dust collection. Sure, I could spend more money and get a Kapex but my table saw works just fine, helped along with the occasional use of jigsaw or circular saw.

Of course I don't currently do any home improvement projects either. If I did I'd get one. However for purely woodworking I haven't felt lacking by not having one.

[rodger.]

I don't have a mitre saw. I find them imprecise, take up space in my shop I can better use for other tools and are horrid at dust collection. Sure, I could spend more money and get a Kapex but my table saw works just fine, helped along with the occasional use of jigsaw or circular saw.

Of course I don't currently do any home improvement projects either. If I did I'd get one. However for purely woodworking I haven't felt lacking by not having one.

I was firmly in this group as well, for long time.  I only used a mitre saw for rough cuts, and actually put it away for a while and used a handsaw to break down lumber before a project start.

Then it all changed when I decided to get a kapex. I wanted the convenience of being able to go from the TS rip operation to a crosscut operation without losing my setting.  The two issues (besides accuracy) I had for a mitre saw saw were space and DC.  I must say the kapex excels at all three.  This does come at a very high cost (kapex + ct26 + additional 36 mm hose).  I could easily see why people would not opt for this route, as there are other ways to get results that are as accurate for far less moola.

Value is subjective.

[boelkers]

Drawers width designed to fit a festool sustainer, so 16 15/16 wide, and I went 20" long.  I loaded them up with heavy stuff, seems to be no problem.  Slides are rated for 100 lbs.

As for the bosch, I didn't have new miter glide in my shop.  I had a 10" slider.  It's a good saw, but its footprint is large, it a dust monster, and its not nearly as accurate as the kapex.

I just want to confirm, you used dominos for joining your drawers together?  If so, do you feel that it will hold up better or about the same over time than using dovetails? 

[Eric.]

Nothing is better than dovetails for drawers.  That doesn't mean they're necessary or Pug's drawers won't hold up.  But nothing is better than dovetails for drawers.  Never has been, never will be a better joint for drawers.

[boelkers]

Take a look at the drawers in an old piece of furniture.  If you they did something 100 years ago and it's still around, it was probably done right.   

Unless it's a really big drawer that is going to hold a lot of weight, 1/4" ply for the bottom is probably fine as long as it's properly held inside a dado in the drawer sides and back with enough meat underneath it to give it support.

I only glanced at this, but it looks like it could have some good tips:  http://www.finewoodworking.com/pdf/drawerbuildingbasics.pdf 

Thanks for posting this PDF link.  I'm going to be making a bunch of drawers (12 of them) in the next few weeks and this was a good read for some extra tips on the various ways of construction.  Much appreciated

[rodger.]

I just want to confirm, you used dominos for joining your drawers together?  If so, do you feel that it will hold up better or about the same over time than using dovetails? 

Dominos are super strong, and are pretty quick to make.  My original plan was pocket screws, so this "classed up" the project a little bit.  Drawer stock is 5/8 too, so I try to avoid pocket screws in anything less that about 3/4.

Didnt feel the need for dove tails on this project.  Drawers will probably outast me, and they will see heavy use.  If I used hidden runners instead of side mounts, i probably would have upgraded to dovetails.  With 14 drawers, Blum slides would have cost me about 800 bucks.  Side mounts came in at about 180.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Pug

[Al Capwn]

Nothing is better than dovetails for drawers.  That doesn't mean they're necessary or Pug's drawers won't hold up.  But nothing is better than dovetails for drawers.  Never has been, never will be a better joint for drawers.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, that is true. Modern-day glues might challenge it with finger/box joints.

https://woodgears.ca/dovetail/dovetail_vs_boxjoint.html

https://woodgears.ca/dovetail/strength.html

Also, in full disclosure, the test wasn't a very large sample size nor is it indicative of wear strength over time. Dovetails also offer mechanical advantage in the case of glue failure, and quite frankly look neat. It is just one of those hallmark joints, I suppose. 

Speaking of dovetails, Paul Sellers motivated to leave my inner Norm and I'm going to be practicing cutting them by hand this weekend. Wish me luck - I expect an exercise in frustration the first go around.

Somewhat related:  Where do you guys buy cabinet hardware?  I've never bought any before but will need some slides and hinges soon for a bathroom vanity build. 

I purchased full extension slides for my shop furniture from http://www.wwhardware.com/, though I am sure there are other suppliers around, they had the best prices at the time. Looks like they offer a gamut of various cabinet hardware and the like.