Cliff

What is it about people...

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That makes them unable to understand the value of work they are asking to be done? I know you guys see it with woodworking all the time. This has nothing to do with that, but with custom web site stuff. Why on earth would I, someone who has been a software developer for 11 years, value my free time lower than the rate I get paid at my full time job? I really think they expect quotes at minimum wage levels. They don't understand that "the bare minimum of 20 hours" is A: going to be hard to make a quality product as it is and B: hardly worth rolling out of bed for.

Like... go hire a college kid that needs the work. Yeah I'll take your money and go buy a drum sander, but I'd also rather do something besides programming in my "free time."

I see parallels between clients of all types of work.

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Because the ikea and Walmarts of the world have numbed the consumer into not understanding that one off items don't cost the same as mass production and a wasteful consumer economy sees everything as a trade up opportunity instead of a one and done job. 

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It's the same with web stuff too. There are do it yourself websites that charge nothing or $100. Well, you get exactly what you pay for. Or you hire someone that does it so they can go buy an x-box game, then you throw a fit when you can't get a hold of them to make changes for you.

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I've determined that if i make stuff and sell to people I'm going to make what i want to make and sell the finished piece. If they don't like how much i want for it I'll just keep it until someone does.

Custom work seems like it's almost too much of a headache for a hobbyist to try and make money with. I do custom stuff for friends as practice for what i want to make for myself and i tell them upfront what I'm doing. They usually get a great deal and i get the practice for when it matters.

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3 minutes ago, Llama said:

So... You won't do my website for 50 bucks? 

Funny you use that number.  The guy who just quoted to do my wife's website came in at $50/page. Not sure if that's good,  bad or about inline.

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1 minute ago, Llama said:

So... You won't do my website for 50 bucks? 

No. Sorry :)

Not that I'm the best there ever is, but a person has to value their time. My current client set up a pretty nice contract for me. They are the reason I just jumped about 2 years ahead in my tool buying list. This is literally the reason I care to do side projects, it helps me buy the stuff I need for my hobby.

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8 minutes ago, Cliff said:

No. Sorry :)

Not that I'm the best there ever is, but a person has to value their time. My current client set up a pretty nice contract for me. They are the reason I just jumped about 2 years ahead in my tool buying list. This is literally the reason I care to do side projects, it helps me buy the stuff I need for my hobby.

Played that wrong...the answer is YES! If you throw in a BCTW plane...

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I just don't get butt hurt if someone doesn't want to pay my rates for my free time.  My rates are what they are and they don't change.  If they want the work then, it's a fair deal.  If they don't want the work then I still have my free time to do as I wish.

Life's too short to get wound up over penny pinchers that don't understand the value of your time!

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Happens in all industries my friend. Just how it is. Either work or hobby/side work for some extra cash. 

Best thing I have learned is to walk away from the is either primary work or side gigs that people have unrealistic expectations of the cost. Because once you give them a deal on it, they'll want everything cheap or free. Then I get resentful of their attitude and pissed at myself for getting into it. 

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4 hours ago, Llama said:

$52? :ph34r:

An hour? Cause that is pretty close.

1 hour ago, kbj said:

Happens in all industries my friend. Just how it is. Either work or hobby/side work for some extra cash. 

Best thing I have learned is to walk away from the is either primary work or side gigs that people have unrealistic expectations of the cost. Because once you give them a deal on it, they'll want everything cheap or free. Then I get resentful of their attitude and pissed at myself for getting into it. 

Yeah, I made a mistake of working my quote down a bit. I quoted a number for 40 hours of work, they balked, I said.. I can do super simple design for half. Anything less just isn't worth my time. I got wood projects to mess up and fix. I should have doubled my quote for their objection. I'm not a good business dude. This is why though I don't do these types of things usually. I dislike "well I have no idea what I want. How about you show me some ideas and do stuff and I'll pay you $200 for your 6 weeks of effort." If you have to guess what a person wants, chances are, you guess wrong. Then everyone is unhappy.

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16 minutes ago, treeslayer said:

yeah, i tell people my rate per hour is what they make per hour at their job. i love to work for doctors and lawyers:lol:

Haha, that's more difficult when talking to business owners that run restaurants. For my home town I go with $50/hr, everywhere else it's $75-100. More if I have no interest in doing the job. But in this small town - people think everything is minimum wage.

From my understanding, I'm not charging near what most freelancers do. It's not unheard of for $135-150/hr for what I provide. I just can't say that with a straight face. I'd be so busy adding stuff to my amazon cart while discussing the estimate that I'd lose focus.

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2 hours ago, Cliff said:

From my understanding, I'm not charging near what most freelancers do. It's not unheard of for $135-150/hr for what I provide. I just can't say that with a straight face. I'd be so busy adding stuff to my amazon cart while discussing the estimate that I'd lose focus.

Time to get past that!  I am a freelancer (consulting, marketing type stuff) and have no shame charging $100+ per hour.  Sure, some businesses don't want to spend this, but most don't even blink. You have to be confident that you are worth it. Of course, some of this will depend what region you live in or what region the customer is in. You may be surprised by what people will pay in a business setting. Shame this doesn't translate into woodworking or other crafts.  

I remember my first customer when I was just starting freelance work - I was nervous to talk about money and asked what he thought was a reasonable rate - he said $80 hour and I was thinking like $50-ish in my head! Next job I quoted $100 (different customer) and got that no problem.  I also lost a bid with a big tech company out here and later found out from my contact it was b/c they thought I was too cheap!

You should see what big businesses charge out their employees' time for - it is very easily $150-300 per hour, sometimes more. And these are not rocket scientists or doctors, etc.

The other thing to keep in mind with this stuff is you never really make that hourly wage as a freelancer, not even close.  You have to build in time/money for all the other bs needed - writing proposals, pricing out jobs, initial meetings, bookkeeping, etc.  At the end of it, I figure maybe about half my time is actually billable - and I am not full time right now. Not sure how accurate this is as I've never spent the time to figure it out. As long as I can pay the bills I try not to worry about it.

Last thought is sometimes it is easier to price based on a day rate vs. hourly.  Hourly can be tricky to plan for as easy to forget something, a pain to keep track of, etc.

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7 hours ago, Llama said:

I'll trade you for a cross-cut sled. :) 

I am proud to say I have finally got one that is square! For now..

 

7 hours ago, Tom Cancelleri said:

Pork chop?

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

I still haven't received my last pork chop.

 

6 hours ago, cjtboy said:

Time to get past that!  I am a freelancer (consulting, marketing type stuff) and have no shame charging $100+ per hour.  Sure, some businesses don't want to spend this, but most don't even blink. You have to be confident that you are worth it. Of course, some of this will depend what region you live in or what region the customer is in. You may be surprised by what people will pay in a business setting. Shame this doesn't translate into woodworking or other crafts.  

I remember my first customer when I was just starting freelance work - I was nervous to talk about money and asked what he thought was a reasonable rate - he said $80 hour and I was thinking like $50-ish in my head! Next job I quoted $100 (different customer) and got that no problem.  I also lost a bid with a big tech company out here and later found out from my contact it was b/c they thought I was too cheap!

You should see what big businesses charge out their employees' time for - it is very easily $150-300 per hour, sometimes more. And these are not rocket scientists or doctors, etc.

The other thing to keep in mind with this stuff is you never really make that hourly wage as a freelancer, not even close.  You have to build in time/money for all the other bs needed - writing proposals, pricing out jobs, initial meetings, bookkeeping, etc.  At the end of it, I figure maybe about half my time is actually billable - and I am not full time right now. Not sure how accurate this is as I've never spent the time to figure it out. As long as I can pay the bills I try not to worry about it.

Last thought is sometimes it is easier to price based on a day rate vs. hourly.  Hourly can be tricky to plan for as easy to forget something, a pain to keep track of, etc.

True on all that. I'm billed out to our client at $125/hr for the contract we're on.

Man I need a crash course in "writing proposals, pricing out jobs, initial meetings, bookkeeping" hah. Of course the guy I'm talking to right now knows he wants something but can't really explain it and expects me to just figure it out as far as I can tell. That might be fine for a designer, but that is not me. I'm a developer who can make a site look good, but I have zero artistic sense really.

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2 hours ago, Cliff said:

Man I need a crash course in "writing proposals, pricing out jobs, initial meetings, bookkeeping" 

I do that type of stuff everyday. I will help you for the hourly rate of $75. :)

*I actually do this kind of stuff, not kidding. 

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Seems to happen in all forms of service.  When I had a photography business, some folks would complain about the prices.  Fine with me, I really didn't care.  Same with furniture.  $600 too much for a small shaker style table?  Ok...  Works for me.  

Your time and expertise have value and if people don't want to pay for it, move on.

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Even if you are doing a side job I think the way you need to feel about the hourly rate that you charge is the same way you would have to look at it if it was your full time gig because an hour of your life is an hour of your life and you don't get it back.  And in that case full time, out of that hourly rate you have to put some aside for medical, you have to put some aside for retirement, paid vacation, rent, utilities...  So why when its a side job should it be anything less, you are using the same skill.

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This makes my think of one of my first sales managers go to phrase when I first entered the financial world. 

If someone questions the fee for your service, you have not adequately showed your value

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5 minutes ago, Brendon_t said:

This makes my think of one of my first sales managers go to phrase when I first entered the financial world. 

If someone questions the fee for your service, you have not adequately showed your value

True and some will never get it.

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