Carriage Door Build

[Curtis]

As I wait for the finish on my new dining table to set up, Im moving on to making a set of carriage doors as I will be converting my garage to an artist studio and am ripping out the 16 ft wide 80 year old crumbling overhead door.  I was just wondering what the pros / cons of some of these choices of woods I have the option of using would be.  Im looking at choosing between clear vertical grain doug fir, cvg western red cedar, soft maple or ash.  Just based on the decent 8/4 stock at my local lumber yard.  The door would be 1 3/4 standard thickness.  

Im wondering what characteristics I should be looking for and prioritizing, like weight, resistance to warping, wear, etc.  The doors will be painted.  Price wise, doug fir and western red cedar come to about 650$ for the rough stock, soft maple and ash around 435$.  

I have attached a pic of one door.  And rough idea of what the garage opening might look like.  Thanks for your help.  Let me know if there are any details I left out.  

 

[wdwerker]

For paint grade I would use either the Douglas fir or the maple. Cedar is too soft in my opinion and ash has a coarse grain with open pores which won't paint well for exterior use.

[Ronn W]

+1 on the maple.

[Unknown craftsman]

CVF is the best choice in my opinion.Because it's the most stable just make absolutely sure it KD.If you choose fir.

Ive been wanting to do the same with my shop. Please post some pics when your done.

 

Aj

[Southwood]

I getting ready to go down that path as well. I have that issue and looked the doors over several times. Once I priced out the hinges, I just decided to go with a 6-0 pre-hung exterior door. Will be a little faster and that should help with winter on the way. Getting the out swing model as well.  

[wdwerker]

If the fir doesn't have 8 -10 growth rings per inch, as well as being Kiln dried I would use the maple . New growth fir with very few rings per inch isn't very stable, nor does it last long in an exterior environment.  Using  the heart/ colored maple will be more stable and stronger than the all white maple, plus it should be cheaper ! TB III or some other exterior glue is a must. Epoxy with a longer open time is also gap filling if your tenons don't fit so well. Allow for wood movement on every panel . I used Lexcel clear caulk to glue glass into doors. It remains flexible for decades, literally, I've used it since the 70's. It's a good choice for seams to, paintable, best left to cure for about 3 days. Comes in clear and white. Cleans up with mineral spirits.

Prime and paint every surface especially the top and bottom edges of the doors ! Use an elastic caulk on all the upward facing seams, gaps etc. Leaving downward facing seams & gaps open allows any moisture to escape.

[Curtis]

Awesome. Thanks guys. I'm leaning toward the maple to save some $ since it will be painted but have a soft spot for the cvg Doug fir as I have been using it for other projects. The stuff my lumber yard carries is around 20 growth rings per inch. Decisions decisions. I'll update the project as  I move forward. 

[Freddie]

I started this project a couple of years ago and never finished. It was roughly two and a half years ago on a thursday. 

[Don Z.]

Even though it's painted, I would be worried about the rot resistance (or general lack thereof) of the maple.

[Andy Wright]

I will buck the trend and make a case for the ash. Fir and Cedar are both very soft and will be vulnerable to getting "beat up". I know the species of "Soft Maple" varies by region, but most of the soft maple i have worked with is still what I would call a soft hardwood.

Ash is the hardest of the four species you listed and the way doors in my shop get treated harder wood is better. The open grain on the ash may require a a little more work to get the wood sealed, but once it is sealed it shouldn't be an issue.

Another consideration between Ash and Maple is how you plan to finish the inside of the door. will both sides be painted or do you plan to use a natural finish on the interior?

[JosephThomas]

16 hours ago, Freddie said:

I started this project a couple of years ago and never finished. It was roughly two and a half years ago on a thursday. 

Very nice. Any lessons learned about choice of wood, joinery, paint/finish?

[Freddie]

Very nice. Any lessons learned about choice of wood, joinery, paint/finish?

 

 I basically followed the original photo of Mike Pecovichs' doors. The nice part is the insulation factor of the door, the not so nice part is the big thick heavy slab the door becomes. Handling the doors alone can prove to be a real pita. 

 

In the future, I would use a stave core instead for stability. On a door this thick, if you have any unwanted movement after assembly it would be rather difficult to reverse. 

[Coop]

Great lookng door Freddie! But I gotta ask, is it still unfinished, i.e., unsecured shop for two years, and what makes you remember it being a Thursday?

[Freddie]

10 minutes ago, K Cooper said:

Great lookng door Freddie! But I gotta ask, is it still unfinished, i.e., unsecured shop for two years, and what makes you remember it being a Thursday?

Notice the existing garage door in the pic Coop. 

As for the thursday, it was either that or one of the other 6 days in a week. 

[lmurphy]

I built these a few years ago. They are each 5' wide, and 10 ft tall.  The frames are DF. They are drawbored and wedged mortise and tennon.  I cut the tennons with a ryoba saw, and boy was it fun. The rabbeted boards are cedar. We were originally planning on using strap hinges, but switched to sliding hardware. I didn't bother changing the diagonal braces. I also did not install them.

 

 

[Curtis]

Hoping to drop some $$ this weekend at the lumber yard to get this thing rolling.  Here is my drawing for one of four doors (a pair of double out swingers) - Let me know if any of my dims or design looks wonky.

Also, I have realized that these doors rarely will see sun because of the direction they face.  And there is not much of an overhang, so the bottom halves will get plenty wet.  And that area is always the last spot to dry out.  The driveway in front of the doors gets mossy.   The last (50 year old) garage door was completely rotted on the bottom.  What tips would you offer to keep these babies rot free for years to come.  I will be adding sills and wont let the bottom of the doors come in contact with the ground.  Should I seal the bottom?  Or ways to ensure that the door can dry out when it gets wet?   Because of this Im leaning away from Maple now and toward a more rot resistant wood? But still not super sure.  If its painted does it matter?  

[wdwerker]

Seal the bottom well, prime and paint. Dowel or Domino all joints especially the 4 corners

[Brendon_t]

I built a solid front door out of red oak two years ago.  red oak has guy nasty pores and can double as a straw if needed. 

The route I went was using a neutral base exterior oil based paint applied in very thin layers. it gets afternoon sun and is unprotected from the occasional reason and still looks great. 

[wdwerker]

You can get oil based paint on the "left coast " ? AMAZING !

[RichardA]

On 9/28/2016 at 9:34 PM, Freddie said:

Notice the existing garage door in the pic Coop. 

As for the thursday, it was either that or one of the other 6 days in a week. 

Knowing you, it was probably one of those damn days that end in "Y" !

[Unknown craftsman]

11 hours ago, Curtis said:

Hoping to drop some $$ this weekend at the lumber yard to get this thing rolling.  Here is my drawing for one of four doors (a pair of double out swingers) - Let me know if any of my dims or design looks wonky.

Also, I have realized that these doors rarely will see sun because of the direction they face.  And there is not much of an overhang, so the bottom halves will get plenty wet.  And that area is always the last spot to dry out.  The driveway in front of the doors gets mossy.   The last (50 year old) garage door was completely rotted on the bottom.  What tips would you offer to keep these babies rot free for years to come.  I will be adding sills and wont let the bottom of the doors come in contact with the ground.  Should I seal the bottom?  Or ways to ensure that the door can dry out when it gets wet?   Because of this Im leaning away from Maple now and toward a more rot resistant wood? But still not super sure.  If its painted does it matter?  

Gutters will definitely help. Cypress is going to be your best bet.Even if your painting.

I like the door design someday my shop going to get passage doors.I hope I hope.

Aj

[elrodk]

If you want hardwood white oak is a good outdoor wood. Much better rot resistance than red oak. Ipe will not rot out in our lifetime but it is heavy, expensive, and very hard. Aka ironwood.

Sent from my woodshop using duct tape, twine, and a bit of sawdust.

[Curtis]

Finally on to my door project.  Just went home with 160 BF cvg Doug Fir.  

I have two questions for everyone.  1.  Should I be using a marine epoxy like West or System 3.  or just Titebond 3.  One thing that would really help is a long open time for the complicated glue up.  Wasn't sure the open time of epoxy?

2.  Im going to use pegged loose tenons for the joinery.  I am trying to best size the  joinery. And wasn't sure what approach was best and if my spacing looked safe.  Each door panel is 46" x 84" and the stiles are 6".  The top and middle rail are also 6" and the bottom rail (pictured) is 10".  I have attached a few pics of sizes.  Im using a Domino to cut the mortises (hence the sizes of the mortises).  Mortises are 2 3/4 inches deep.  I have some red oak I was going to make the loose tenons out of.

[Tom King]

I always use proportions when sizing stiles and rails.  Picking random numbers often results in designs that just don't look quite right.

I'd size the width of the stiles at 1/6 or 1/7 of the door width.   Difference between 1/6 or 1/7 depends on ratio of width to height, but I've never worked that out.  A drawing will make it obvious.  Bottom rail double the stile width.  Middle rail 5/6 of the bottom rail (or maybe some number of /7's if 1/7 used for stile width.  Top rail same as stile width.

I'm pretty sure that 2" will look too heavy for glazing bars.

I would use Cypress, but don't know where you are located, so maybe Yellow Cedar.