mds2

upgrading planes - advice please - UPDATE Page 3.

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Dude, lighten up.   You rib people constantly.  If you take it with a good nature, you don't have to play victim, it can just be in fun. 

Maybe there is a requirement to use a smiley to have fun.  Well emojis are dumb so you'll have to take my word for it. 

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Eh, I can take a ribbing with the best of 'em.  It didn't feel like a ribbing.  I've taken a beating today for breaking with the herd and sticking to my guns.  Perhaps I'm a little over-sensitive at the moment but I've had enough for one day.

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1 hour ago, Eric. said:

I totally agree with this part.  And I'll remind you that I own one.  I'm just saying that the LAJ makes the most sense for people who have a very limited plane collection and intend to keep it that way.

Sorry again for expressing an opinion.  I'm slowly learning that forums are supposed to be all about the herd and not the individual.  I'll try to stay within the lines.

Eric, I disagree with your second statement. I spend a great deal more time here reading and gaining woodworking wisdom. I'm actually following this thread because I'm in the middle of making a decision about my next plane purchase. I have a LN 102 and love it. I have a Veritas standard #4 which I'm learning to use. I've got a Veritas medium shoulder plane and large router plane. Also my wife bought me a Grizzly 22" plane (she was trying to help me :() which I still haven't gotten out of the plastic. So I'm thinking a jack plane is the right way to go but not sure the LAJ is. 

Not trying to hijack but maybe this will help the OP. 

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2 minutes ago, prov163 said:

Eric, I disagree with your second statement. I spend a great deal more time here reading and gaining woodworking wisdom. I'm actually following this thread because I'm in the middle of making a decision about my next plane purchase. I have a LN 102 and love it. I have a Veritas standard #4 which I'm learning to use. I've got a Veritas medium shoulder plane and large router plane. Also my wife bought me a Grizzly 22" plane (she was trying to help me :() which I still haven't gotten out of the plastic. So I'm thinking a jack plane is the right way to go but not sure the LAJ is. 

Not trying to hijack but maybe this will help the OP. 

Op, To me,  the laj has become my go to plane.  I have a long ace jointer plans but set right,  the jack will easily make a glue up worthy joint,  for that,  I wouldn't want the open rabbit side.   For shooting mitres I don't have a hotdog so I hold the side. Wouldn't want the blade open there either. I don't use my jalp where I would need an open rabbit side. 

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I think all Eric is trying to say is that When you start adding a smoother, jointer, etc..., the LAJ becomes more and more unnecessary. The LAJ is okay as a smoother, okay a jointer, okay for rough stock removal, okay for shooting, and okay for various other tasks. 

I guess I also share his sentiment, When I bought mine 3 years ago, I set out to have it as my only bench plane and to supplement my power tools. If I would have known I was going to go get more into hand tools I would have went a different route. The fascination with the LAJ is overstated and Eric is just trying to shed some light on it. 

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1 hour ago, jmaichel said:

 The fascination with the LAJ is overstated and Eric is just trying to shed some light on it. 

I think Eric did just fine at articulating his point.  

The counter point to that whole thing stays the same.  For a "recreational user" the LAJP with a few blades could actually be under valued. 

You said it yourself,  you got deeper into hand tool neanderthalisms. That isn't everyone's path. I have a total of 5 planes and can't think of another one I even want because the ones I have,  fill every need I have from a hand tool and they do it well. That is my experience.  Right, wrong, or indifferent. 

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This is kind of the way I am leaning.   Kinda bummed Veritas doesnt make a rabbeting block plane, I read about how much people love their regular block planes all the time.

If I remember the LN and LV LA jacks are roughly the same price.  Is one really any better than the other?

I've used both and I prefer the veritas. Just my opinion. Adjustments felt smoother, plane felt heavier yet easier to use. Who knows, could have been something off with that particular LN I had in my hands.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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I have 5 LN block planes and I've yet to find something to complain about.

Veritas makes great stuff but I wouldn't want two planes (skewed rabbet pair) when you could have just one that does the same thing.  A rabbet block is a joinery plane, not a smoother...so I don't understand the need for the skewed blade.  If there's a tiny bit of tearout it will be hidden within the joint anyway.

All that said, I don't use my rabbet block nearly as often as my large shoulder plane.

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I have all LV planes. The Bevel Up Smoother, and block plane see the most action. I use the LAJ primarily when I need to flatten the side of one wide board before switching to the low angle jointer plane, and then moving onto the smoother. This is a case when the board is too wide for the powered jointer. I find a lot of people prefer LV joinery planes over LN joinery planes such as the router plane, shoulder plane, etc. 

 

You honestly can't go wrong with either brand, however I do tend to prefer the LV stuff, strictly from an innovation point of view, they build upon the tried and true stanley designs, but add more of what people want into it versus LN which is strictly just high quality stanley clones.

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44 minutes ago, Eric. said:

I have 5 LN block planes and I've yet to find something to complain about.

Veritas makes great stuff but I wouldn't want two planes (skewed rabbet pair) when you could have just one that does the same thing.  A rabbet block is a joinery plane, not a smoother...so I don't understand the need for the skewed blade.  If there's a tiny bit of tearout it will be hidden within the joint anyway.

All that said, I don't use my rabbet block nearly as often as my large shoulder plane.

The LN skew block plane makes a big difference when rabbeting across the grain. It's just easier to push and removes a lot of material. Plus it has a fence that makes starting a rabbet from scratch an easy operation.

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56 minutes ago, Mike. said:

Tom - what blade angle do you use with the smoother for face grain?

I have all 3 angle blades. I keep the 25 on the low angle jack for faster stock removal, 38 on the smoother, I find it gives a good finish, with an easier cut, and the 50 on the jointer plane when doing edge grain to joint boards. I tried 50 on the smoother, but found it to be too much work to push. 

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1 hour ago, Immortan D said:

The LN skew block plane makes a big difference when rabbeting across the grain. It's just easier to push and removes a lot of material. Plus it has a fence that makes starting a rabbet from scratch an easy operation.

Yeah I realize the skew has several advantages (IMO minor advantages in this context) but the problem remains...you have to buy two planes instead of one.  That means twice the price and twice the maintenance.  Hate to say it but it seems like a gimmick to me.

On the other hand, the skewed blade is definitely a huge benefit in something like a shooting plane.  In a block plane, I just don't see it.

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5 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Yeah I realize the skew has several advantages (IMO minor advantages in this context) but the problem remains...you have to buy two planes instead of one.  That means twice the price and twice the maintenance.  Hate to say it but it seems like a gimmick to me.

On the other hand, the skewed blade is definitely a huge benefit in something like a shooting plane.  In a block plane, I just don't see it.

I don't think you'd double maintenance, presumably you'd use the straight-blade version the same as your total use on the skewed versions. That said I agree with you that the advantages are minor, and the cost difference significant.

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2 minutes ago, BonPacific said:

I don't think you'd double maintenance, presumably you'd use the straight-blade version the same as your total use on the skewed versions. That said I agree with you that the advantages are minor, and the cost difference significant.

I just meant you'd have two planes to keep clean and oiled, two blades to sharpen, and two setups to fettle and spend time on.  Seems like way more work than it's worth.

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4 minutes ago, Eric. said:

Yeah I realize the skew has several advantages (IMO minor advantages in this context) but the problem remains...you have to buy two planes instead of one.  That means twice the price and twice the maintenance.  Hate to say it but it seems like a gimmick to me.

On the other hand, the skewed blade is definitely a huge benefit in something like a shooting plane.  In a block plane, I just don't see it.

I agree it's not a must have plane, but makes rabbeting easier. We all know pushing a plane at an angle works faster because there's less resistance. Well with the skew plane you can achieve the same effect while rabbeting, you push it straight but it's really cutting at an angle. It removes a lot of material on each pass. And it's a bronze plane! LOL

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After reading everyone's replies I am even more confused as to what to buy. LOL!  Now a plow plane is sounding good!  It would get some use.

I kind of re-evaluated what I need/want.  I NEED a new block plane.  My old stanley block plane is my most used plane, and the most fickle because of a missing part.  So a new block plane is at the top of the list.  BUT, I'd still like a rabbeting plane. 

Are there any reasons why a LN rabbeting block plane couldn't also be used like a regular block plane?  I understand people not wanting "swiss army" planes, but I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck. If I can kill two birds with one stone, that would be wonderful. 

 

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Since when did the Low Angle JACK not become a JACK plane?

I feel there has been a great disservice done by the magazines and videos showing how versatile the LAJ can be. That's all fine and good... It is versatile. But in the end, it is still a JACK plane. When used as such, the above arguments become invalid. 

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3 minutes ago, Mike. said:

"jack of all trades"

As stated, it certainly does many things well... My point is that if you have the low angle smoother, low angle jack and low angle jointer there isn't much overlap as suggested above.

This is where the problem comes in, and isn't mentioned:

Most people on here don't really need a jack plane, as they use machines to do the majority of what a jack plane is supposed to be used for. Take those functions away, and all you really need is a smoother and MAYBE a jointer plane. As for which Jack plane you decide on (low angle or "normal") that is pure preference. 

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Just now, Mike. said:

Makes sense Mel.   I have a LV smoother and a LV #6.   I am mostly machine oriented so those two can do nearly everything I need a bench plane to do.  I know a #6 is not popular, but it seemed like the right fit based on my work flow.   It is small enough to do some jack work bit big enough to do some larger jointer work as well.   

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make for about two years and nobody has gotten it. :)

 

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1 hour ago, mds2 said:

Are there any reasons why a LN rabbeting block plane couldn't also be used like a regular block plane?  I understand people not wanting "swiss army" planes, but I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck. If I can kill two birds with one stone, that would be wonderful. 

It can be used as a regular block plane. It comes with a stainless steel thing you attach to the side of the plane, so it becomes more like a plain regular block plane.

But I find regular block planes easier to setup and sharpen. I only use it for rabbets, I must confess.

 

Edit: Sorry I misread your post. I was talking about the skew plane.

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2 hours ago, mds2 said:

After reading everyone's replies I am even more confused as to what to buy. LOL!  Now a plow plane is sounding good!  It would get some use.

I kind of re-evaluated what I need/want.  I NEED a new block plane.  My old stanley block plane is my most used plane, and the most fickle because of a missing part.  So a new block plane is at the top of the list.  BUT, I'd still like a rabbeting plane. 

Are there any reasons why a LN rabbeting block plane couldn't also be used like a regular block plane?  I understand people not wanting "swiss army" planes, but I'm trying to get the most bang for my buck. If I can kill two birds with one stone, that would be wonderful. 

 

I have the Veritas Plow Plane with the entire blade set and conversion kit. Even though I have only scratched the surface of what this plane can do I would highly recommend it. No reason you can't use rabbeting block plane everyday I have been using one as my only block plane exclusively for the last 3 years. Since then I have added a skew rabbet plane and a shoulder plane, which now takes the place of some of the tasks that I use to use the rabbeting block plane on. I am now wanting to add a LA block plane. 

 

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There's no reason a rabbet block couldn't be used as a regular block, but I can think of a few reasons maybe you wouldn't want to...

Comfort...the blade extending to the sides gives you slightly fewer holding options (unless you like getting your fingers all cut up).  Also the sides ride up higher and more forward which makes it slightly more awkward to handle and therefore slightly less comfortable.

The rabbet block does not have an adjustable mouth.  Depending on how you use your plane this may or may not matter to you, but it will be difficult to take very fine tearout-free shavings with the wide open mouth the way it is.  I do happen to use my standard block plane to take smoothing-plane fine cuts when fitting or flushing parts - I use my low angle block for heavier cuts - so that would be a problem for me.

The rabbet block has nickers so every time you want to use it like a regular block, you'll have to turn those nickers back so you don't scratch the hell out of whatever you're planing.

The rabbet block is a low angle plane.  If you want to use it on long grain you'll need to buy a second iron and grind a higher bevel angle on it in order to get tearout-free cuts.  This of course means you'll have to swap the blade out every time you change tasks.

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3 hours ago, mds2 said:

Are there any reasons why a LN rabbeting block plane couldn't also be used like a regular block plane? 

I sometimes use mine that way, but I like to have an adjustable throat on a block plane, which the rabbiting plane does not.

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20 minutes ago, Eric. said:

There's no reason a rabbet block couldn't be used as a regular block, but I can think of a few reasons maybe you wouldn't want to...

Comfort...the blade extending to the sides gives you slightly fewer holding options (unless you like getting your fingers all cut up).  Also the sides ride up higher and more forward which makes it slightly more awkward to handle and therefore slightly less comfortable.

The rabbet block does not have an adjustable mouth.  Depending on how you use your plane this may or may not matter to you, but it will be difficult to take very fine tearout-free shavings with the wide open mouth the way it is.  I do happen to use my standard block plane to take smoothing-plane fine cuts when fitting or flushing parts - I use my low angle block for heavier cuts - so that would be a problem for me.

The rabbet block has nickers so every time you want to use it like a regular block, you'll have to turn those nickers back so you don't scratch the hell out of whatever you're planing.

The rabbet block is a low angle plane.  If you want to use it on long grain you'll need to buy a second iron and grind a higher bevel angle on it in order to get tearout-free cuts.  This of course means you'll have to swap the blade out every time you change tasks.

Thanks it's like you were reading my mind. I was going to ask some questions about the LA standard angle block planes and now i don't feel like I'd be doubling up if i bought the LA rabbet plane. I'd still have my standard angle for other work. 5 block planes doesn't sound terribly excessive any more :D. For block planes LN gets the nod over LV in my inexperienced opinion.

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