Dolmetscher007 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 What I've been doing is, I draw an imaginary perpendicular line across the table face about an inch before where the big metal throat insert starts. And I don't let my left "feeding hand" ever go past that point. I also always use a push-stick, unless the cut is just obviously large enough for me to not need a push stick... 18+ inches at least. Even then, it feels kind of weird for me to have both of my hands spread shoulder width apart, pushing wood over a 4300 rpm 40 tooth blade. But I guess unless you use a robot, there will always be some level of danger when woodworking. Hell even your robot might become self aware, and well... we all saw Robocop and Terminator. Bad scene. But for res-awing on a table saw. I'm going to have to agree with Eric and some of the other guys... There really isn't a way to re-saw a board on a table without breaking my "no fingers past the imaginary line. You could possibly use a feather board to hold the board against the fence, as long as the feather board doesn't go past the tip of the first tooth of the blade; otherwise you'd be into pinching/binding territory. And even then you'd have to use a push stick, but your push stick would have to be at around a sharp angle, almost sending the push stick in behind the board you are trying to re-saw, kinda like a sacrificial board that you will ruin the end of; otherwise your hands will have to pass the imaginary line, and thus over the blade. I think I am just going to go ahead and make the decree that for ME, in my shop, there will be no re-sawing until I can get a band saw. But SHIT... I need to re-saw some stuff!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmetscher007 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 Here's what I'm trying to do; maybe you guys can help me since I can't resaw. I am trying to make some zero clearance table saw inserts. One for my standard kerf blade at 90 degrees, and one for when I use a molding cutter. Please take a second and watch the first 30 seconds or so of this video. It shows Job Peters doing exactly what I need to do. I have a really nice Bosch jig saw. So, I can trace the shape of the insert onto some 3/4" white oak that I have a lot of scraps of (reclaimed hardwood flooring scraps), and I can cut the shape out with the Jig Saw. but before I do that, I had planned on using my combo-square to determine the exact depth of the throat hole (sounds gross) and then resaw the 3/4" stock to that thickness. But now that I can't resaw, and my hand planing skills are... oh wait, I don't have any of those skills. How can I get the 3/4" stock to the exact thickness I need without a planer, band saw, jointer, or the ability to re-saw on a table saw? Since it's molding that I will be making with this, the insert has to be dead flat with the table or else the molding profile will come out wonky. BTW... the molding cutter head that I have is the exact same sears model that Jon is using in that video. To see it, you will have to back up the video some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 I use 1/2" ply and allen set screws to level. No resaw necessary. Solid wood isn't the best choice because once you create the kerf in the plate, there's only a little bit of short grain remaining to hold it together. Ply or other man-made sheet goods are better for a ZCI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtwood Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 On my saw, 1/2" baltic birch (actually 12mm) is close enough to the right depth that all I need is a little tape on the underside to shim it up to the right level. MDF is not a good choice, too flimsy. As far as what is a safe cut goes, there are no safe cuts at the table saw. There are only degrees of danger. There are cuts at one end of the spectrum that most everyone would agree are reasonably safe and cuts at the other end most everyone would agree are too dangerous. In between there is a big gray area. The less experience you have the less you should be dipping your fingers into it. Stay at the shallow end and then if something interesting happens it will happen in a way that you learn from it without a trip to the ER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmotjr Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 I'll throw in the required "Get a gripppper" comment too. I got mine a few months ago, and my confidence level in making cuts has drastically improved. Not that I'm blindly doing cut's now, but I feel more confident that I will be able to push the piece against the fence and forward in the same motion. It has definitely been worth the money. The high quality of engineering in it is impressive too, with the material being a very high strength fiber something or other, not just straight plastic, and the nuts and bolts are o-ringed so they don't fall out. It was clearly designed by engineers who also use a table saw regularly, and were able to merge the best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 9 hours ago, Dolmetscher007 said: Here's what I'm trying to do; maybe you guys can help me since I can't resaw. I am trying to make some zero clearance table saw inserts. One for my standard kerf blade at 90 degrees, and one for when I use a molding cutter. Please take a second and watch the first 30 seconds or so of this video. It shows Job Peters doing exactly what I need to do. 8 hours ago, Eric. said: I use 1/2" ply and allen set screws to level. No resaw necessary. Solid wood isn't the best choice because once you create the kerf in the plate, there's only a little bit of short grain remaining to hold it together. Ply or other man-made sheet goods are better for a ZCI. +1 on 1/2" ply and allen screw levelers. I have not had a saw where the insert is not retained in some way but, that is easy enough to factor in using your original as a guide. When making consumables like ZCI's the setup is the bulk of the effort so, I make a half a dozen or so at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmetscher007 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 31 minutes ago, Marmotjr said: I'll throw in the required "Get a gripppper" comment too. I got mine a few months ago, and my confidence level in making cuts has drastically improved. Not that I'm blindly doing cut's now, but I feel more confident that I will be able to push the piece against the fence and forward in the same motion. It has definitely been worth the money. The high quality of engineering in it is impressive too, with the material being a very high strength fiber something or other, not just straight plastic, and the nuts and bolts are o-ringed so they don't fall out. It was clearly designed by engineers who also use a table saw regularly, and were able to merge the best of both worlds. Man... I love watching Steve Ramsey on YouTube, and I am always curious about the Grippper... but... I am hesitant. In full disclosure, I have not only never seen one in real life, I've never even seen a video that shows how they really work. All I do know is that it seems to work by having the operator pass their knuckles about an inch or two over a spinning saw blade with only a bit of plastic between the saw blade and permanent disfigurement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, Dolmetscher007 said: Man... I love watching Steve Ramsey on YouTube, and I am always curious about the Grippper... but... I am hesitant. In full disclosure, I have not only never seen one in real life, I've never even seen a video that shows how they really work. All I do know is that it seems to work by having the operator pass their knuckles about an inch or two over a spinning saw blade with only a bit of plastic between the saw blade and permanent disfigurement. The Grripper is second only to the SawStop brake in terms of table saw safety innovation. It does feel weird the first few times you use one, but you soon realize how safe they are and the world of opportunities it opens up which were previously too dangerous to perform. I would also recommend kicking the Steve Ramsey habit. I'll stop short of explaining why for fear of being...not nice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedinblue Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 I have had a gripper for a couple years now and rarely use it as intended. It typically gets used as a normal push block. I can't get used to running my hand over the blade. You will probably outgrow Steve Ramsey soon enough. It's almost a natural progression through the hobby I think. I started Ana White, then "upgraded to Ramsey, then Jay Bates, now almost exclusively TWW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmetscher007 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, gee-dub said: +1 on 1/2" ply and allen screw levelers. I have not had a saw where the insert is not retained in some way but, that is easy enough to factor in using your original as a guide. When making consumables like ZCI's the setup is the bulk of the effort so, I make a half a dozen or so at a time. You know... it never occurred to me to use counter sunk hex screws as "feet." As soon as I saw the picture, I was like... Duuuuh!!! Do you use any kind of threaded inserts for the hex screws, or do you just screw them into the wood, and let them be a friction fit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmotjr Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 While I can appreciate Eric's sentiments on Ramsey, as he is more of a DIY'er than a fine wood worker, he still serves as a great introduction as to what you can do with limited tools and budgets. He's a decent gateway into better things. I say this from being that guy who watched him and said "I can do that!", and then I see the real wood worker's out there, and say "Well, since I did that easy project first, I can see how that one is done, with a little practice I'll get there.". But I think the word @Eric is looking for is "hack", As to the different cuts you can do with a gripper, with my scrap box project, I had to rip some of those 6" long pieces to a consistent width. Without the gripper, I don't think I would have tried that cut on the TS. It makes cutting thin stock a breeze. I still use a joystick style pushstick for bigger stuff though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmotjr Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 25 minutes ago, gee-dub said: +1 on 1/2" ply and allen screw levelers. I have not had a saw where the insert is not retained in some way but, that is easy enough to factor in using your original as a guide. When making consumables like ZCI's the setup is the bulk of the effort so, I make a half a dozen or so at a time. What table saw is that G? I think I have the same one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 The scariest thing to me, that I see way too often, involving table saw use, is the number of people that use sleds without a safety box on the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmotjr Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Tom King said: The scariest thing to me, that I see way too often, involving table saw use, is the number of people that use sleds without a safety box on the back. Define a safety box please, Tom. I may use one but not know it. A new sled is on the to do list, and that would get added to the design if it isn't already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric. Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, bleedinblue said: I have had a gripper for a couple years now and rarely use it as intended. It typically gets used as a normal push block. I can't get used to running my hand over the blade. You will probably outgrow Steve Ramsey soon enough. It's almost a natural progression through the hobby I think. I started Ana White, then "upgraded to Ramsey, then Jay Bates, now almost exclusively TWW. Next up...Doucette and Wolfe. 3 minutes ago, Marmotjr said: While I can appreciate Eric's sentiments on Ramsey, as he is more of a DIY'er than a fine wood worker, he still serves as a great introduction as to what you can do with limited tools and budgets. He's a decent gateway into better things. I say this from being that guy who watched him and said "I can do that!", and then I see the real wood worker's out there, and say "Well, since I did that easy project first, I can see how that one is done, with a little practice I'll get there.". But I think the word @Eric is looking for is "hack", As to the different cuts you can do with a gripper, with my scrap box project, I had to rip some of those 6" long pieces to a consistent width. Without the gripper, I don't think I would have tried that cut on the TS. It makes cutting thin stock a breeze. I still use a joystick style pushstick for bigger stuff though. True, good point. If he's being used as a gateway drug to spark interest, cool. But you should move past it in about ten minutes and ignore all his bad habits and sloppy approach...which is difficult to do if you don't know the difference. It's a pretty lousy foundation to build a house upon. IMO Not to be a dick. Which I'm sure I just was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dolmetscher007 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, Eric. said: I would also recommend kicking the Steve Ramsey habit. I'll stop short of explaining why for fear of being...not nice. I think I know what you are talking about. As a woodworker, he's a goofy hack. He takes every shortcut there is, and tends to build things that look like they may fall apart with first use. BUT... he is still damn entertaining! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmotjr Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Eric. said: Next up...Doucette and Wolfe. True, good point. If he's being used as a gateway drug to spark interest, cool. But you should move past it in about ten minutes and ignore all his bad habits and sloppy approach...which is difficult to do if you don't know the difference. It's a pretty lousy foundation to build a house upon. IMO Not to be a dick. Which I'm sure I just was. Nah, you're usually a dick with good intentions, but this was just truth. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolmetscher007 Posted May 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 Ha ha ha... I thought that this thread was BLOWING UP because everyone started reading about my zero clearance insert questions. And now I just see that Eric's haterish ways just started a Steve Ramsey blah'o'thon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick S Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 https://www.amazon.com/Table-Saw-Techniques-Roger-Cliffe/dp/0806942681 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_r_ Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 Check out this book too: LINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrolan Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 5 hours ago, Marmotjr said: Define a safety box please, Tom. I may use one but not know it. A new sled is on the to do list, and that would get added to the design if it isn't already. Tom means a box on the front side of the front fence...so that when you push the front fence through to finish your cut, the blade is inside the box. Without such a safety box, the blade comes through the fence and where do you tend to hold your sleds? On the fence. You can easily imagine doing repetitive crosscuts with a sled and mistakenly pushing the sled forward with your hand on the fence right where the blade will come through. So basically make a small box (top as plexi so you can see can be preferable) to contain the blade and make it impossible for your hand to be there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 I call them a "dummy block". You can see two examples on the top of my larger sled in the rear and the right of my medium sled in the middle Here's another shot of the medium sled. My smaller sled uses a box. Regardless of the name, safety, safety, safety . .. always. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Eric. Posted May 25, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 "Dummy blocks" certainly add a layer of safety, but IMO using a sled without one is no different than using the table saw for any other operation. "This is where the blade path is, this is where I don't put my hands." It's just part of my relationship with the table saw - knowing where hands go and where they don't. Same way I don't push my hand through the blade on a rip or any other cut. But yeah...I'll concede...best practice is to have a dummy block. I just don't think it's that ridiculous to use a sled without one. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tpt life Posted May 25, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 Someone here once suggested sandpaper in the no touch areas so that there is tactile difference when getting into that zone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted May 26, 2017 Report Share Posted May 26, 2017 I've seen a couple different sled designs that included stops to prevent pushing the sled far enough for the blade to come through. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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