My first table-top glue up, and it's looking to be a real mess

[gee-dub]

15 hours ago, Llama said:

Where did the idea of needing 10000 clamps come from? Drives me nuts! 

I've read you mention this before.  We all have our peeves; I certainly have mine.  You don't need 10,000 clamps, its simple math.  for panel glue-ups you just need to be able to do this:

Or simulate it with sprung-joints or curved cauls.  I think the sin of too much clamping force is probably committed more often than too many clamps

Oh wait, the coffee kicked in . . . I think this whole thing is resolved. Doh!

[Eric.]

29 minutes ago, Marmotjr said:

I think you were quite tame for how you can be Eric (Not a knock on you, and we've had this thread before, so let's not go there), but when he's had the type of day he's had, the slightest transgression, perceived or real, can set a person off.  I know it can for me. 

The guy is in a tight bind here, and we've all leaned in to him about poor material choice etc etc, so now let's help him find a way to make it work. 

Well I've had my fair share of bad days and I'm no stranger to lashing out.  But when honest feedback is falsely labeled as "being a jerk" because it's not the answer someone wants to hear, then I have to take issue.  The defensiveness and unwillingness to accept good advice is what escalated the tone of this thread.  I won't take responsibility for this one.  It ain't on me.

[collinb]

1 hour ago, Eric. said:

Not to completely derail this thread (even though it's basically resolved IMO)...

I just went back and read through the entire thing trying to find exactly where the grouchy abrasive curmudgeon prick reared his ugly head...and I'm sorry but I couldn't find it.  Can someone point me to something I wrote that was offensive in any way?  Because I was basically called an asshole, and I totally don't understand why.  Thanks.

I feel for the guy. He's trying. Like me he's going to fail and he's going to kill trees. Many have given their leaves in vain.

It takes time to learn whom to trust and why they should be trusted. That's hard to do in the Web.  (I've watched a number woodworking videos and many, from what I've learned form multiple sources, are many representative of the conventional wisdom of the field. It takes time to sort things out.) That trust at least as much a part of the process as the woodworking itself. In a world without apprenticeships and local groups (in many areas) it's difficult to find that starting point. Relationships and understanding take time. It will come. Time and relationships have to be allowed for lest we become a (or appear to be a) "woodworking nazi," for lack of a better term.

When he fails (and he will from time to time) he will come back and re-read and learn. Then he will ask questions and will have more information so that he better understands the answers.

Besides, with so much "furniture" being built out of pallets and live-edge planks, who can really blame him for trying construction material? Those styles will pass, and hopefully soon. (But if you like life-edge stuff, please don't flame me.)

[Eric.]

It's not that hard to find credible sources of information.  Find out what people have built...look at their projects...and that's a pretty good way to determine who's speaking from experience and who isn't.  I agree there's a lot of regurgitated nonsense...most of it is, actually.  But the proof is in the portfolio.  I seek out people who build the way I want to build, and judge from pictures and videos of their actual finished work.  I see good work, I listen.  I see crap (or nothing at all), I ignore.

[Immortan D]

6 minutes ago, Eric. said:

It's not that hard to find credible sources of information.  Find out what people have built...look at their projects...and that's a pretty good way to determine who's speaking from experience and who isn't

+10

[Woodenskye]

The green box under Eric's name should end the discussion that he is pointing you in the right direction.  

[bleedinblue]

36 minutes ago, collinb said:

 

"That" is already considered "that."  Ugh. 

There is a plethora of information on whatever style furniture you want to make.  Literally from pallets to construction lumber to ebony.  I wasn't a woodworker twenty years ago, but I can't imagine there was ever a time when such resources were ever at your fingertips.  

[Immortan D]

11 minutes ago, Woodenskye said:

The green box under Eric's name should end the discussion that he is pointing you in the right direction.  

hmmmmm

[mat60]

My goodness.   I need a nap now...

[collinb]

1 hour ago, Eric. said:

It's not that hard to find credible sources of information.  Find out what people have built...look at their projects...and that's a pretty good way to determine who's speaking from experience and who isn't.  I agree there's a lot of regurgitated nonsense...most of it is, actually.  But the proof is in the portfolio.  I seek out people who build the way I want to build, and judge from pictures and videos of their actual finished work.  I see good work, I listen.  I see crap (or nothing at all), I ignore.

I agree. The hard part is sorting it all out. Why? Because there's a lot of "useful" that's not "right". For a beginner in *any* field that sorting out process can be protracted.

Personally, I see interacting with experienced people face-to-face as the best approach. They can show you things that can't be shown (or can't be show as well) on a web page.

ttfn

[Pondhockey]

3 hours ago, Pwk5017 said:

Truly sat down to help this guy, but after two pages deep, there arent enough beers in a case to deal with this....

 

So did I, before blurting out my unhelpful comment last night.

On the clamps issue:  one trick I use is to replace them with straps (that only works if you have suitable straps!)  I first clamp the boards in place then strap them to keep them in place, thus freeing up clamps.  The clamping pressure isn't supposed to be so tight that it squeezes out all the glue.

[MisterDrow]

50 minutes ago, collinb said:

I agree. The hard part is sorting it all out. Why? Because there's a lot of "useful" that's not "right". For a beginner in *any* field that sorting out process can be protracted.

Personally, I see interacting with experienced people face-to-face as the best approach. They can show you things that can't be shown (or can't be show as well) on a web page.

ttfn

I will definitely agree that sorting it out as a beginner is incredibly difficult. In my younger days I'd have probably lashed out at Eric after having a bad day(s) in a stressful situation for his response as well. Not because Eric did anything wrong, but because I (without admitting to myself) had created a big problem for myself and needed a quick way out. One thing that woodworking has taught me is that rush projects, especially with larger furniture type pieces, never end well no matter what material you are using. All it takes is one thing going wrong and the stress/anger spirals into oblivion which then drives the potential for bigger/more mistakes even higher.

In my time here, this has, by far, been the most forgiving and generous group of woodworkers I have ever interacted with on the Internet. I've posted my own share of stupid stuff I've done or tried to do and taken the responses (even the harsh/blunt ones) with the utmost respect for those who have spent their lives in the craft and are willing to share their knowledge with others.

OP, I get that you are stressed. I get that you are in a pinch, both in terms of time and budget. I can assure you 2... okay 2.5 things (as a VERY new woodworker):

1. Softness aside, you can most certainly make furniture from big box store construction materials... but as everyone here has said, it will move like crazy for MONTHS until it finally tears itself apart unless it has been dried to the proper moisture level for such use (trust me, this takes a LONG time) and has been built using proper joinery techniques.
   1. (also, the more you work with hardwoods, you'll find SYP and other softwoods to be incredibly unforgiving when it comes to fine work)
2. Trying to build something as large/complex as a table from such unstable material (and without the proper experience) in a rush is going to cost you far more in time, stress, frustration than the savings are worth

Please, take a breather, read the posts here with the mindset of: These guys have been there, done that, and blunt/grumpy or not, they are here to give good information, not help you accomplish something that they know from experience won't work. Seriously, none of what has been said was personal, though it ventured that way when you lashed out at them first... you may not realize that you did, but trust me, you did.

Bottom line, you've got a bunch of material now and a mess on your hands. You can either listen to the advice given that DOES use what you have or scrap the project, go buy a cheap folding table (check craigslist, too) and get by until you have the time and a better mindset and resources to learn how to build furniture.

One last thing... I assume you are pricing your hardwood based on what is available at Home Depot or a similar store. I may be wrong there, but those prices seem more in line with that than a decent hardwood dealer. Call/shop around. I can get Poplar at Lowes for $27 for a 1x6x96... (about $6/bdft) or I can go to my hardwood supplier and get it for $1.85/bdft. That's a big difference and well worth the effort to shop around. 

Don't be discouraged. Step back, have a beer, and take this situation one step at a time.

Also, one last thing, if you have a harbor freight near you, most of their tools are crap but their 36" and shorter F-Style clamps and their aluminum bar clamps are excellent for the money. They are a fraction of the cost and will hold you over very well until you can afford/justify the fancy ones (which ARE wonderful, btw).

[Guest Randy]

I ended up not reading the whole post so don't really know if this was suggested or not. Also I did read you have $0 to spend on clamps right now. However, I think you do need more clamps. One inexpensive way to acquire clamps is to buy pipe clamp fixtures and the required black or galvanized pipe in whatever lengths you need to glue up the panel width you have. I know there will be those who put down these clamps but, for years, before I invested in very pricey parallel clamps, I used pipe clamps exclusively. It might take a little more effort to get the panel flat but you can do that with cauls (crosspieces basically which, of course, require a few more clamps. I see fixtures online for about $12 or $14 each; then add the cost of whatever length pipe you need. That is still a lot cheaper than buying expensive parallel clamps; maybe not the absolutely best in the world but certainly very functional. Also, buy the 3/4" pipe clamp fixture for 3/4" pipe. The 1/2" is not strong enough.

Again, I used these for many years and still actually have a number of them with varying lengths of pipe. The nice thing about them is that the fixtures can be removed and installed on any length pipe so, if you buy 3' long pipe for your current project and need longer or shorter clamps, just buy the right size pipe and put them on. Don't know if that helps.

As for the wood you're using...I suppose those who feel you shouldn't use pine are, to some degree, right. However, when I was starting as a woodworker, I made a lot of things out of pine; small and larger. It has it's drawbacks and maybe the quality isn't as good as it was those many years ago, but it still has some value. Good luck and feel free to message me if you have any other questions about pipe clamps.

[Denette]

You really should have started your thread by establishing that you have little money, less time, and an imminent family visit. If we know your situation we can provide contextually helpful advice. In your situation, sure, screw some SYP together, but if you don't tell us where you're coming from, you've got to realize that this is a fine woodworking forum and without context people will generally direct you to best practices.

 

My 2 cents? Build a decent picnic table. Use it indoors for now, then in the yard when it noodles up, then break it down and roast hot dogs when the table has completely run its course.

[Guest]

This is a good tutorial on panel glue ups.  No gimmicks.  Just simple pipe clamps and clamps.  No dominoes, biscuits, pocket screws, etc.  

http://www.startwoodworking.com/post/rudiments-tabletop-glue

[Dolmetscher007]

I saw a cool trick in a YouTube video recently, where a guy is building a Skiff (boat), and he gets a piece of 3+ in. thick white oak that was cut down just days prior to him using it. So, since it was green as can be, and full of moisture, he put it in a polyethylene back, and using a make-shift steam generator he blasted it with tons of hit steam for literally hours. He said that there is something about steaming green wood that you'd think would dry it out, but really it comes out very dry, and it doesn't move after that, because the steam permanently changes the Lignin.

Granted, he was using white oak, and his piece was thicker than 3". But has anyone ever tried steaming wood to dry it out? Odd concept, although I can maybe see how it works. If the wood's internal temperature is at or higher than the boiling point of water, the wood will "steam out" it's own moisture. And maybe since it is all loose and limber because the lignin has been denatured through moist heat, that is what keeps it from checking and splitting at the ends. 

I wonder if you took a crappy twisted 2x12 from the lumber yard, measured it's MC, bagged it up, steamed the hell out of it for 3 hours, then clamped it all around to a flat table... would it cool down flatter and drier than it started?

[Eric.]

I hesitate to even respond lest I irritate you again, but I can't help it...

Does it really make sense to put all that work into it when properly kiln dried material is abundantly available?

And anyway, no...that couldn't possibly work.  I don't see how steaming any piece of wood will get it closer to 6-8% MC.  Steaming is useful for bending.  And that's about it.

[Guest Randy]

I decided to read the rest of the thread to get a sense of where things were going with the “advice” given. I found I could only get through a portion of it before I just couldn't read anymore and I realized this thread is a prime example of why internet forums tend to be the last place I go for advice these days. It’s not the information presented that is the problem, it’s the way the advice is given.

Most things that were said are, in fact, correct. Construction grade pine is not the best wood for furniture and many times causes problems in the results. All wood should be dried to 6-8% moisture content in the ideal world, although, based on acquired information and direct experience,  it rarely stays at that dryness at the lumber yard and especially in your environment and shop. The pocket hole isn’t a good joint to use for panels. You need a sufficient number of clamps for panel glue-ups. There are others also, of course.

When I started out in woodworking, there were no forums. There was no internet. I feel lucky neither of these existed. That meant I acquired my knowledge and skills from reading books, taking a few classes, one or two close friends who were also woodworking, and direct experience. Without too many exceptions, the information and knowledge imparted by books is correct, classes at least give you one way of doing things, friends are usually helpful instead of critical, and direct experience absolutely told me what sources were reliable and what works for me. All pointed me in the right direction without discouraging me from trying things that weren’t always the accepted ways of doing things.

I continue to be mystified by the angst expressed on almost all forums I read. Why so angry about the advice given? If it’s correct, let it stand for what it is. If the person asking doesn’t want to take it, so what. If the advice given is based on your experience and knowledge, say so and acknowledge that just maybe people new to woodworking deserve the chance to find out for themselves what works for them and what doesn’t.

Will a table top made from construction grade pine be an heirloom piece of furniture? Probably not. Will it be functional? Most likely it will, regardless of the result. At any rate, I found early in my work with wood, that I was equally proud of those things I made with basic skills, knowledge, and tools, as I was of those items I have made more recently which reflect improved skills, much greater knowledge, and certainly many more and better tools (not all so useful as I thought when I bought them). Never forget that, at some point in all of our woodworking histories, we didn’t know very much and tried things that maybe didn’t turn out as well as we wanted them to. However, for me, that meant I just learned what not to do in the future or how to improve my work. I try never to consider myself as the best source for information. I can only say what has worked well for me or what I learned from my other sources over the years.

So, if something isn’t advisable, just say so and then maybe suggest some things that can be done to make the result as good as possible without beating up on the guy who’s trying to learn and, of course, each other.

And . . . @Dolmetscher007Please try to sort through the information provided by all the posters and pick out some common threads. There is some good information in between all the anger that is expressed toward you for questioning it.

 

[Dolmetscher007]

5 minutes ago, Randy said:

I found I could only get through a portion of it before I just couldn't read anymore and I realized this thread is a prime example of why internet forums tend to be the last place I go for advice these days. It’s not the information presented that is the problem, it’s the way the advice is given.

Most things that were said are, in fact, correct. Construction grade pine is not the best wood for furniture and many times causes problems in the results. All wood should be dried to 6-8% moisture content in the ideal world, although, based on acquired information and direct experience,  it rarely stays at that dryness at the lumber yard and especially in your environment and shop. The pocket hole isn’t a good joint to use for panels. You need a sufficient number of clamps for panel glue-ups. There are others also, of course.

When I started out in woodworking, there were no forums. There was no internet. I feel lucky neither of these existed. That meant I acquired my knowledge and skills from reading books, taking a few classes, one or two close friends who were also woodworking, and direct experience. Without too many exceptions, the information and knowledge imparted by books is correct, classes at least give you one way of doing things, friends are usually helpful instead of critical, and direct experience absolutely told me what sources were reliable and what works for me. All pointed me in the right direction without discouraging me from trying things that weren’t always the accepted ways of doing things.

1

Hear hear!

I appreciate it Randy

[Mike T]

As a new comer to this or any other forum all I can say is WOW!!!  Also as a new comer it is realatively easy to follow people on this forum that you consider to be good advisors. Find someone who can state good advice in a way that is the most effective to you. In my experience I have found good advice and very friendly and helpful people. That being said I guess I'm old enough and have a thick enough skin to know that if I were to post something not well thought out that I can expect a response that may contain a bit of straightening out language in it. Good luck and IMO experiment all you want with anything you want. 

[Llama]

 

51 minutes ago, Dolmetscher007 said:

I wonder if you took a crappy twisted 2x12 from the lumber yard, measured it's MC, bagged it up, steamed the hell out of it for 3 hours, then clamped it all around to a flat table... would it cool down flatter and drier than it started?

No. It won't flatten enough for it to be worth your time. But you can try it...

Wood has a memory, it is twisted for a reason.. that reason is nature. It grew that way for a long time, and won't simply get flat because you steamed it. Wood movement and tension have caused the board to move over time, and it will spring back most of the way after it's dried.. We as furniture makers do our best to remove tension, and limit movement when we build.

That's why we have machines to flatten boards. If all it took was steam, the wood people would clamp wood down, steam the crap out of it, and after they are done drying it and we'd all have flat boards with no problems.

I wish there was a way to start with a board that is 2.125 thick and flatten it and end up with the same thickness. Think of it like carving a sculpture... The machines (jointer planer etc) remove what doesn't look like a flat board. Same as a sculptor... 

That's the reason steam bending requires the wood to be properly milled then cut into smaller pieces before bending. With thin pieces you can somewhat manipulate and suspend the shape when glued to other pieces in a lamination.

 

[woodbutcher74]

 I understand the OP REALLY wants to build this table for his family. I had a shop instructor that preached the right tools for the job. He always said if you don't have the right tools, don't start the job. I think there are tons of people that really want to build nice stuff and try to accomplish their goals before they have the right stuff and get discouraged. Unfortunately wanting something REALLY bad doesn't make it happen. Keep plugging away and adding to your tool collection and you'll get there someday. Also the only people that never screw anything up are the people that never try anything.

[mat60]

I just hope he found a way to get the top together. 

[Tpt life]

Mods, please remove or hatchet this thread. We need fewer with members talking the good advice and members in good standing down. I have made mistakes here. I am not perfect. But this thread will not do the reader down the line any good. 

[BillyDoubleU]

On 7/10/2017 at 5:56 AM, Eric. said:

Not to completely derail this thread (even though it's basically resolved IMO)...

I just went back and read through the entire thing trying to find exactly where the grouchy abrasive curmudgeon prick reared his ugly head...and I'm sorry but I couldn't find it.  Can someone point me to something I wrote that was offensive in any way?  Because I was basically called an asshole, and I totally don't understand why.  Thanks.

Nobody did. 

 

He just got advice he didn't care for. He is invested in his project and doesn't want to hear he is working with subpar wood and joinery. 

 

He double and tripled down multiple times in defense of his thought process. While I can commend him for what he is after sometimes you simply can't polish that turd. 

 

I love construction lumber personally. I came from a construction background as a young man framing houses. Give me a framing saw and a nail gun and I'll make you just about anything. 

 

All my my workbenches are out construction grade wood and a ton of screws. I overbuild. I also realize my benches are for heavy use in building nicer things. 

 

Nicer things require nicer materials. Nicer things require proper tools. Nicer things require proper technique. 

 

You just can't get past some aspects of building stuff and some folks just don't want to hear they aren't doing it right. 

 

OP wants useful tips that don't conflict with his predetermined outcome and time invested. 

 

Polish a turd, pig in a dress, horse to water etc etc. 

Nobody is trying to bag on you OP. I gotten lots of good advice. It simply goes against what you want to hear in a project your invested in. Sometimes that sucks. So you can plow ahead or heed the advice.

Build a table out of soft pine, go for the rustic look and sell it to fund a nice proper table