Baltic Birch vs MDO for painted project

[danbell78]

I am getting ready to undertake a project and looking for some advice/experience on materials.  The project is a built in bench seat for a breakfast nook kind of a thing.  It will also have a bookcase on the back of the bench.  The current plan is to paint the whole thing to best match rest of our decor in the our newly renovated kitchen.  I am looking for advice or experience with the material to use for the majority of the casework.  I plan to use plywood the question is since I am painting it should I use MDO or decent grade of birch plywood for this?  Seems that MDO should take the paint very well, but not sure of the down sides of using MDO as I have never worked with it.  

Second piece of advice.  I am planning on hardwood trimming ends and some face frame type stuff for the seats.  The dilemma here is the wood to use.  I have a nice pile of oak, some red and lots of white, or I can go purchase some poplar.  I think I know the advice this group will give, but want to here it so I can convince myself to spend the money.  I don't have projects on the honey do list right now for the white oak but I am sure I will find something eventually.  

[..Kev]

So, baltic birch is going to have more plys than the MDO.  The birch also tends to have less voids in it and is just nicer material to work with.  Both will work fine for a painted project.

As for your edging, I'd use what you have on hand since it's painted.  Just make sure to use a good primer/sealer before the paint so that the surfaces stay consistent after paint.

[wdwerker]

Baltic can have football shaped patches that would be hard to conceal.  Regular Birch or maple paints well but inspect the sheets with a bright raking like for flaws in the layer under the face veneer. If you don't catch them and reject the sheet or cut around the flaw it shows up after the first coat of primer and it's hard to fix . MDO isn't cheap but it paints beautifully. Plus being an exterior product it's hard to hurt it. Maple with heartwood showing is usually sold as paint grade ( but probably not at the home center) That would be my first choice. Poplar beats pine or oak. Oak's grain will show through the paint and pine can be too soft. 

White oaks for fine furniture, red oaks for flooring and builders grade cabinets ( just my opinion...)

[wtnhighlander]

What Steve and Kev said. Poplar is usially easy to source, and paints well. Red oak will show grain texture through the pain, no doubt. White oak a bit less, but that would be a shame to paint white oak.

[Mark J]

Agree with above.  It's going to be your kitchen and every one who sees it will know it's your work, so I would spend what I needed to to do the project as well as I could.

Just want to add that there is a quality and price difference between birch veneered plywood and baltic birch plywood so keep that in mind as you consider your options.

[Marmotjr]

I have found that MDO takes paint extremely well, and is very nice to work with, it cuts beautifully, no tearout, and sands very smoothly. 

Straight up, for painted surfaces, I'd prefer to use MDO over a wood veneered sheet any day.  The outer layer of MDO is usually thicker than a typical veneer (I believe it's usually 1/8" MDF, or some similar material), so if there are any joints that aren't flush or what not, you don't have to fear sanding into the lower layer as much, revealing wood/grain that will make painting difficult. 

But I believe that MDO is more expensive than a comparable piece of ply, so unless you are doing work that requires the MDO, I see no real benefit to buying it.  Like any sheet good, you get what you pay for.     There's both cheap and expensive MDO, and likewise regular plywood.  So if you wanted a high quality MDO, you might have to fork out some cash for it. 

[tlbrooks]

My son is a well known Seattle artist and he actually uses Baltic Birch plywood as his canvas. He's been buying from a local supplier in Tacoma and the product I've seen him use didn't have any football patches that I recall seeing? I've attached a photo of one of his paintings that used the Baltic Birch plywood.

[wdwerker]

Looks like some nice art !  Baltic Birch comes in different grades. The higher grades have no patches in the face and almost no voids in the core. The highest grade is rated structurally for use in aircraft.  I think B/BB is one of the highest grades for Woodworker's. BB/BB has a minimum amount of patches.

[BillyJack]

I have something similar to build for the babies room.. It will mainly be mdf as it paints pink and gray...

[BillyJack]

7 hours ago, tlbrooks said:

My son is a well known Seattle artist and he actually uses Baltic Birch plywood as his canvas. He's been buying from a local supplier in Tacoma and the product I've seen him use didn't have any football patches that I recall seeing? I've attached a photo of one of his paintings that used the Baltic Birch plywood.

Sure it's not MDO for painted surfaces?

[wdwerker]

That looks like a 5' x 5' sheet of Baltic to me.  MDO is brown , not golden .

[BillyJack]

Sorry must have had my glasses on backwards again ...

 

[wdwerker]

Always meant to take a picture like that of my boxer. 

Its amazing how we usually wander off topic towards the end of a thread. 

[Ray777]

Hello.
I have been asked to paint a 9'x5' image that has an arch at the top.
I was thinking that at this huge size, plywood (that I would prime with acrylic gesso) might be a good option because the cost of having a stratcher frame for canvas made (with the arch included) is approx $1,200. A Canadian company is the only one I found that builds them at that size. Also, to keep costs down on shipping, they'd have to send me the pre-built pieces (an extra $100) and I'd have to put it together myself.

Questions -
1. Do you all know, or heard of, high quality (no knots or voids) Baltic Birch plywood sold at that size (9'x5')?
2. Can the arch be cutout with a jigsaw or band saw? Does it create rough  / frayed edges?
3. At that size, would the sheet need a structural support framework to keep it from warping/ bending?

Thanks in advance for info and advice.
Ray

 

[JohnG]

17 minutes ago, Ray777 said:

Questions -
1. Do you all know, or heard of, high quality (no knots or voids) Baltic Birch plywood sold at that size (9'x5')?
2. Can the arch be cutout with a jigsaw or band saw? Does it create rough  / frayed edges?
3. At that size, would the sheet need a structural support framework to keep it from warping/ bending?

1. Baltic Birch usually comes in 5'x5', but occasionally can be found in 4'x8'. I suspect that larger than that would have to be a very special order and very expensive, if at all possible. Joining two 5'x5' pieces would be much easier and cheaper, if you are able to work with the joint. You can look at the baltic birch grading standards to ensure that the grade you buy will meet your needs. For instance, "B/BB" grade states that the face (B) is to be clear, free of defects, and a uniform light color. Back (BB) may have 3-6 color matched patches, oval shape and egg size.

2. Arch can be cut with a jigsaw or router on a trammel. You would need a giant bandsaw or would need to make a lot of smaller cuts to make a bandsaw work. Router on trammel would give the most consistent curve and leave the best cut.

3. While Baltic Birch ply is pretty stable, a structural frame would be a good idea to keep it from bending or warping. Framework will be especially important if you use two 5'x5' sheets.

[Mark J]

+1 to the above.

If you could also laminate something like canvas to the wood surface this would help to hide the seam/joint between the plywood panels.  Also, even the best grade of plywood will have a strong grain pattern which may otherwise show through a coat or two of gesso.  And the surface might look more like canvas, to boot.

[wtnhighlander]

I would suggest a torsion box structure, using 1x2 or 1x3 lumber with 1/8" masonite hardboard on the faces. Maximum rigidity, minimum weight, and smooth surfaces. You will still have seams to manage, but if you back them with the 1x lumber edges, filling with body filler, or maybe even spackle, should allow them to be sanded very smooth.

The arch can be done as a bent laminate, but perhaps a "bricked" layup of wood blocks would be faster. Only the outside needs to be trimmed smooth. 

The canvas layered over the front is an excellent idea, too. Might eliminate the need to fill the hardboard seams.

Do NOT expect an unsupported sheet of even the highest quality plywood to remain flat over time.

EDIT: My father is a painter, with experience on large projects such as this. Painting a solid wall is usually easiest, but here is another possible option I've seen him use:

Build a temporary stretcher frame (look up quilting frames, should work perfectly), that will hold the canvas taut, one section at a time. Paint that section, roll through to the next area, paint and repeat. Dad did this for a mural on an 8' x 20' canvas that had to be rolled for shipment to a church in Honduras. The recipients stretched it in place after delivery.

[drzaius]

MDF is available in 5' x 10' sheets. It takes paint extremely well and the surface is perfectly flat, smooth and without imperfections. Edge joining sheets of plywood can be done, but without using some extraordinary efforts, there is always a risk of having a crack or a ghost of the seam telegraph through.

I learned that Baltic Birch is actually made in 5' x 10' sheets, but they cut them in half for export.

[Ray777]

To all of you that have responded, a big thank you!

You have provided a lot of great information that I'll use to formulate my strategy moving forward on this project. After the responses, I am leaning towards the stretcher frame method. I am assuming that it will be lighter that the two 5'x5' plywood boards (with supporting bars).
Another question, do y'all know if the Baltic Birch panels are made with soybean adhesive or formaldehyde? I heard about soybean adhesive used now to be a safer alternative to the traditional plywood adhesives. Just curious in case anyone knows about that.

Thanks so much for the responses!
 

[Ray777]

On 5/26/2019 at 12:06 PM, JohnG said:

1. Baltic Birch usually comes in 5'x5', but occasionally can be found in 4'x8'. I suspect that larger than that would have to be a very special order and very expensive, if at all possible. Joining two 5'x5' pieces would be much easier and cheaper, if you are able to work with the joint. You can look at the baltic birch grading standards to ensure that the grade you buy will meet your needs. For instance, "B/BB" grade states that the face (B) is to be clear, free of defects, and a uniform light color. Back (BB) may have 3-6 color matched patches, oval shape and egg size.

2. Arch can be cut with a jigsaw or router on a trammel. You would need a giant bandsaw or would need to make a lot of smaller cuts to make a bandsaw work. Router on trammel would give the most consistent curve and leave the best cut.

3. While Baltic Birch ply is pretty stable, a structural frame would be a good idea to keep it from bending or warping. Framework will be especially important if you use two 5'x5' sheets.

Thanks John, some great feedback there. I think for the reasons you mentioned about the two 5'x5' sheets together along with the frame for support, this would likely be much heavier than the Baltic Birch stretcher frame alone ( well, with canvas of course). Also, thanks for the info on the grade and designations. That's very helpful as well.