Herringbone style sliding barn doors

[crumlett]

First let me say that I'm a new member and it's good to be here. I've been woodworking for about 4 years now with random projects (bookcases, tables, benches, desks, small doo-dads for the family, etc...)

We recently moved into a new house and would like to put up some bi-parting barn doors across a 6' door opening. We like the herringbone design and I have some questions on the construction of it. 
As I understand:

• Herringbone should be veneer as the change in grain direction can cause serious long-term stability issues for lumber. 
• Veneer sheets should be max thickness of 3/32"  to avoid seasonal wood movement issues.

Now, with that in mind, my idea is to basically make a hollow core door mostly due to weight. 

• Baltic birch plywood frame (can I use solid wood for this?)
• Baltic birch skin
• 3/32” walnut veneer

 The flat track hardware at barndoorhardware.com can support either  1 3/8", 1 1/2", or 1 3/4" doors. So what would be better? Thicker frame and thinner skin? I can see either using 1/4" or  1/2" plywood skin.As this is my first door construction, I really don't know the pros and cons of each as it applies to doors. 
 

I'm kinda' looking for some confirmation of what I can piece together through various sites and videos. If anyone else has any hints or other methods, I'd love to hear it!

Thanks.

[Tpt life]

Drawings will help. If you mean what I think about herringbone, some tongue and groove relief with careful spacing can allow all the movement needed. It need not be veneer unless you mean a thousand small pieces vs angled planks. 

[crumlett]

sure. I have plans at home. I'll post them tonight

 

[Chestnut]

My first thought is frame the door with the material thickness to meet the hardware and have the pattern be an inset panel on 1/2" stock. You could do the skin but the pattern on the surface of 1/4" ply might cause some issues on the 2 skins unless the veneer is added to both sides causing a lot of work for something you won't see. The hardware can support up to 200 lbs that's a LOT of weight. like 3 sheets of 3/4" 4x8 ply a lot of weight. or 2 sheets of 4x8 MDF. If you get where i'm goign with this, it's get a core the thickens you need if you don't want to frame it. It'll be worth it in saved headaches imo.

 

[crumlett]

Right...I didn't think about adding the balance veneer on the inside of the door. That does add a lot of work. Thanks for the info

I'm trying to emulate the design of this door from Barn Door Dudes. It's one of the only barn door designs I've seen that I immediately liked. 

Might just glue up a couple sheets of plywood for the thickness then add on the decorative layers. 
 

[Tpt life]

Yeah, that’s a hybrid. It’s not parquet, herringbone, or classic weave. Under two over three on the weave is not very balanced. There is no good way to do that beyond surface application. 

[wdwerker]

Under two over three? I just see alternating pairs.

[crumlett]

So, here's what I have so far. 
Laminating 3/4" plywood with 1/2" plywood, and the veneer will get me a door thickness of 1 3/8"
From what I understand, using a solvent based glue would be better because a water based glue could warp the panels. 

[wtnhighlander]

I'd worry that gluing a 3/4" sheet to a 1/2" sheet will result in an unbalanced lamination. Each sheet should have an odd number of layers, but adding 2 odds results in an even. Add 2 more layers of veneer, still an even number of plies. And depending on the plywood, the face veneers may be much thinner.

Since the plywood is hidden, I'd suggest using 5 layers of 1/4" underlayment ply as the core. That stuff is extremely stable, and having the odd number of layers maintains the balanced construction.

Or just use mdf. But I hate mdf.

Oh, if all this gets to be too heavy, you might reduce weight by drilling many, many small holes through the core. Larger holes might interfere with the outside veneer adhesion.

[Coop]

I’m thinking, as suggested by @wthighlander, an odd number, using 3 sheets of 1/4” ply for the core, then attaching 3/8” planks to each side, since it will be visible from both. Bevel and shiplap the planks to give them depth and pin nail the ends of each plank in the center to keep them in place, I don’t see how veneer will give it the depth shown in the pic. Then frame the sides as shown.

oh, and welcome to the forum. Keep us posted of your decision. 

[Chestnut]

10 hours ago, wtnhighlander said:

I'd worry that gluing a 3/4" sheet to a 1/2" sheet will result in an unbalanced lamination. Each sheet should have an odd number of layers, but adding 2 odds results in an even. Add 2 more layers of veneer, still an even number of plies. And depending on the plywood, the face veneers may be much thinner.

Since the plywood is hidden, I'd suggest using 5 layers of 1/4" underlayment ply as the core. That stuff is extremely stable, and having the odd number of layers maintains the balanced construction.

Or just use mdf. But I hate mdf.

Oh, if all this gets to be too heavy, you might reduce weight by drilling many, many small holes through the core. Larger holes might interfere with the outside veneer adhesion.

I've always wondered where the odd ply thing came from. I've seen comercial ply that had even number of plies.

I second the mdf suckage and the holes to make things lighter. You could drill the holes as your gluing the pattern on to make sure that you don't put any in a bad spot.

I'd be worried about getting 5 layes glued and not leaving a ton of voids inside. I'd be concerned gluing 2 pieces together and getting good even pressure as well but if it's in your garage you could park some heavy lawn equipment on it.

[Isaac]

MDF is stable, but has some serious strength drawbacks. It is very heavy, and because it lacks any long fibers, it can be quite brittle. Probably not too likely, but if impacted, it could fracture along some random line. In that scenario you'd be relying on the veneer to hold it all together. 

[crumlett]

11 hours ago, K Cooper said:

I’m thinking, as suggested by @wthighlander, an odd number, using 3 sheets of 1/4” ply for the core, then attaching 3/8” planks to each side, since it will be visible from both. Bevel and shiplap the planks to give them depth and pin nail the ends of each plank in the center to keep them in place, I don’t see how veneer will give it the depth shown in the pic. Then frame the sides as shown.

oh, and welcome to the forum. Keep us posted of your decision. 

Thanks for the info both wtnhighlander and K Cooper!
Found a snippet on the web. Something like this?
are the pin nails just to hold in pace while glue dries? If so,  I'm guessing to use some glue with a bit of elasticity. 

[treeslayer]

I'm not sure what way i would go with this but if i were going to bond sheets of plywood together i would use contact cement, no clamping to fool with and solid bond.

[wdwerker]

I’ve been using Wilsonart’s H2O waterbased contact cement with Baltic birch for years with no problem from the moisture. 

[Tpt life]

12 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I've always wondered where the odd ply thing came from. I've seen comercial ply that had even number of plies.

I second the mdf suckage and the holes to make things lighter. You could drill the holes as your gluing the pattern on to make sure that you don't put any in a bad spot.

I'd be worried about getting 5 layes glued and not leaving a ton of voids inside. I'd be concerned gluing 2 pieces together and getting good even pressure as well but if it's in your garage you could park some heavy lawn equipment on it.

Not odd, but balanced. Two identical layers is balanced. Two differing layers is unbalanced and benefits from the balancing third layer. I believe this has been poorly articulated online for awhile now. 

[Chestnut]

So 4 plys with the center 2 perpendicular to the external 2 would be balanced and an even number? so 2 3/4" sheets would be balanced as would 2 1/2" sheets but doing a 1/2" and a 3/4" is ill advised?

[Tpt life]

Hard to say. I think ply to ply should have similar skin tendencies. I’d not trust recommendation without trial there though. 

[Coop]

13 hours ago, crumlett said:

Thanks for the info both wtnhighlander and K Cooper!
Found a snippet on the web. Something like this?
are the pin nails just to hold in pace while glue dries? If so,  I'm guessing to use some glue with a bit of elasticity. 

I hate to comment as there are others much more versed than me but: movement is not going to be in the ply, but the solid wood panels. If you’re going to glue, apply a strip down the center of each panel only, allowiwing for lateral movement. 

[crumlett]

9 hours ago, K Cooper said:

I hate to comment as there are others much more versed than me but: movement is not going to be in the ply, but the solid wood panels. If you’re going to glue, apply a strip down the center of each panel only, allowiwing for lateral movement. 

That sounds like a good idea

[wdwerker]

If you are using solid wood with half-laps a single bead of glue is smart. But if you go veneer use a full spread of adhesive.  

I built something similar with used barnwood on both sides and I used a wide stripe of black marker behind each seam because the gaps varied and making half-laps was impractical. 

A stable core and treating both sides the same are important. Outside of that leaves plenty of room to adapt to your needs and abilities.

Plan accordingly for door and trim clearance. Baseboards, shoe and walls that are out of plumb will affect how far the track needs to be spaced out from the wall. Onetime I ended up with a 1 1/4" gap from the back of the door to the wall. Old house, plaster, thick trim & crooked walls add up quickly.

[crumlett]

Would y'all finish the face of each individual "plank" of halflap prior to gluing it onto the plywood core? or wait until the done then spray?

Just trying to get all the details prior to starting this project. 

[wdwerker]

If you are sure you won't have any nail holes to fill or want to do some extra sanding finishing the face & edges would be fine.  I usually just spray the whole thing once it's together.