attaching table top to legs


wtl

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Could it get any more elementary? But I'm new to woodworking,  starting very late in life, and I've scoured the web looking for advice on my particular issue. Usually I find answers that are so obvious they make me wonder about my brain. This one though is proving to be a problem. I'm making a coffee table (my first) The top is bubinga - 48" x 18", all one piece, barely 3/4" thick after planing. The legs are going to be (I hope) 3/4" beautifully curly maple - I'm planning on doubling the width by making the legs 2 pieces. The top is very heavy, and the maple is strong, and my wife wants a shelf below the top, so I was thinking of cutting slots into the legs and sliding the shelf in and glueing it, so it could also serve as bracing. But I can't figure out a way to fasten the legs to the top - is a 3/4" top really thick enough to cut mortises into? I was trying to stay away from metal brackets, and I don't want an apron. I'm not sure even screws and brackets would work in such dense but thin wood, but if that was the only option I guess I'd use it. I don't even know if it's possible or wise to join bubinga to maple, especially long-grain to end-grain. But I've had this picture in my head of what the table looks like - simple, clean, gorgeous wood. I might even be delusional. No wonder the guys at the milling shop where I had the bubinga planed and sanded were laughing at me for starting with something like this, especially when I'm still learning how to use my tools. So far though I haven't ruined the bubinga or the maple. I'm hoping somebody here has some ideas that might work. Or at least tell me if I really am irrational. Thanks.

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You don't want an apron, but you really do need some support underneath the top. It dosen't make sense to try and chop a mortise into the top to set the legs.  You really do need an apron.  But, you can make it very narrow, and chop your mortises in the legs, and use on the top of the aprons those figure 8's that Kev linked you to.  Your apron can be as small as an inch and a half.  But you do need the support, and a way to mount the top.

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About the only way to attach the top to the legs without some sort of apron would be to 'stake' it, morticing through the top and wedging the leg tenons in place. I doubt to want the maple legs showing through the top, and at 3/4 it wouldn't be all that strong, anyway. 

One possible option is to invert the structure of the legs. Use an apron or gusset to attach each leg to the lower shelf, hiding the structure under it. That would allow the top to rest on the legs with shallow mortise and tenon joints. It still wouldn't stand up to lifting by the top, but at least it wouldn't fold up on itself if you bump into it.

It may be more complex than you are prepared to tackle, but placing aprons in a diagonal orientation from corner to corner gives most of the strength, and would be almost invisible unless you lay on the floor.

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If you want a clannish look that doesn't have aprons on the sides have the aprons cross under the middle of the table and use that to support the top. Like the blue pieces in the image below but i'd do it for both the shelf and the top. You most defiantly can drive screws into maple just make sure to drill a pilot hole that is large enough. I usually just eyeball it based off of the center cylinder of the screw that the threads wrap around. Sure that part has a name but i don't know it.

ENDTABLEbracing1.png

For attaching the top I'd use screws & figure 8 fasteners. #8 x 1/2" are my go to.

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Thanks everybody! I'm really grateful for the quick and especially knowledgable replies. It looks like I'll have to give up my illusion of no apron no rails. I wanted a sleek, minimalist look, but I've seen some handsome, simple tables with aprons. I did find one youtube video of a guy attaching legs directly to the top using figure 8s - two in the ends of each leg - the wood was walnut, the table looked about 40" long x 20" wide, the legs 1x3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgjFdibI9Xc What do you folks think of this? I have other questions about figure 8s and z-clips:

1. Are these fasteners really strong enough to bear the weight of top+legs+shelf? I guess they must be or people wouldn't be using them - it's just that the screws into the top are so short. Though in my case they'd be going into very hard wood.

2. Another guy on youtube uses z-clips, but he warns to use them only where the apron is perpendicular to the grain; using them on the sides would restrict movement. So his top is attached on only two sides. Does this work, esp. for a heavy table? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMR4oU1E8P4

3. It looks like the top would move/feel loose when you picked it up to move it - I've never seen a table that does that. I was thinking that if that happened it would eventually loosen the (short) screws. But again, why would people use them if that happened?

Kev, I couldn't follow your link - it was blocked, a blank white page.

I don't have any pictures yet - they would be only of a table top with no legs, and 1x8" maple boards. But I'm determined to get this done, and done as nicely as I can, and we really really need a coffee table! Making stuff we need is the top of my list.

Many thanks again for your help -- offering your hard-earned experience is especially generous.

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1 minute ago, wtl said:

Another guy on youtube uses z-clips, but he warns to use them only where the apron is perpendicular to the grain; using them on the sides would restrict movement. So his top is attached on only two sides. Does this work, esp. for a heavy table?

You can use them when the grain is parallel you just have to have room for it to slide into and out of the slot as opposed to side to side.

8 minutes ago, wtl said:

1. Are these fasteners really strong enough to bear the weight of top+legs+shelf? I guess they must be or people wouldn't be using them - it's just that the screws into the top are so short. Though in my case they'd be going into very hard wood.

3. It looks like the top would move/feel loose when you picked it up to move it - I've never seen a table that does that. I was thinking that if that happened it would eventually loosen the (short) screws. But again, why would people use them if that happened? 

The legs hold up the top. The aprons hold the legs together and the fasteners keep the top down. The only weight the fasteners need to hold is the weight of the base if the table is picked up by the top. This is something I don't suggest for any furniture but these guys are more than adequate for a light coffee table. You do want to tighten the screws so everything is snug and doesn't move.

I made a coffee table similar to what your describing and i don't suggest it btw the top is attached with figure 8s. It didn't resist end to end racking very well and if someone sat on it you could have issues. I built it knowing that strength wasn't an issue and it'd get babied and wouldn't receive any thing more than a news paper. Seems your worried about strength, therefore aprons are necessary. The cross method is the best way to balance strength and a clean look.

 

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40 minutes ago, wtl said:

Kev, I couldn't follow your link - it was blocked, a blank white page.

 

Hmm..  That's strange..

See if this link works..  

https://www.amazon.com/Figure-Table-Connector-Fastener-Heavy/dp/B0782XKYHD/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3KVR8GNZZJOTR&keywords=figure+8+fastener&qid=1553708237&s=gateway&sprefix=figure+8+%2Caps%2C195&sr=8-5

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How far under the top are the legs going to be?   If you have a two or three inch overhang on the long side, and a five or six inch overhang on the short ends, A one and a half inch apron would hardly be noticeable.  You'd have a clean look and the top would be supported and the figure 8's would hold the top solidly to the base.  As for a shelf, there's several ways to do that.  

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5 hours ago, ..Kev said:

Thanks Kev - that link worked. I'd never heard of figure 8s before I found this site.

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6 hours ago, Chestnut said:

You can use them when the grain is parallel you just have to have room for it to slide into and out of the slot as opposed to side to side.

The legs hold up the top. The aprons hold the legs together and the fasteners keep the top down. The only weight the fasteners need to hold is the weight of the base if the table is picked up by the top. This is something I don't suggest for any furniture but these guys are more than adequate for a light coffee table. You do want to tighten the screws so everything is snug and doesn't move.

I made a coffee table similar to what your describing and i don't suggest it btw the top is attached with figure 8s. It didn't resist end to end racking very well and if someone sat on it you could have issues. I built it knowing that strength wasn't an issue and it'd get babied and wouldn't receive any thing more than a news paper. Seems your worried about strength, therefore aprons are necessary. The cross method is the best way to balance strength and a clean look.

 

You know, I thought the same thing about use the z-clips on the sides - it was weird that the guy just left it with fasteners only on the two ends.

You're right that I was concerned about lifting the table, like in rearranging furniture or rugs or whatever. I've always lifted things like that by the top without problems, but it's always been factory-made stuff that seems glued together. I guess we could pick it up by the legs - though it's going to be pretty heavy. 

I was wondering about how everything worked with the figure 8s - they're kind of basic for this kind of table, I guess. So it's legs attached (somehow) to apron/rails, and apron/rails to the top.

Your table is gorgeous! Looks almost book-matched. What kind of wood is that? I'm encouraged that you attached the top directly to the legs and it worked, even though the top looks really heavy. Nobody's going to sit on my table - my wife, after exclaiming about how beautiful it is, will then cover it with all her paperwork and books and laptops and I'll probably never see the top or shelf again.

What is "end to end racking"? (Edit: now that I know what it is, I take back what I said about being encouraged.)

I think the cross method might be beyond me, at least if I want to finish this before I'm dead. That whole setup in the sketch looks like mortise and tenon, which kind of scares me - I'm the worst measurer on the planet - my wife got me a shirt that says

Measure.

Measure.

Cut.

Swear.

Repeat.

I made stereo shelves that I connected with dowels, and that drove me crazy. When I look at it now I remember trauma.

Thanks for the good advice.

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4 hours ago, RichardA said:

How far under the top are the legs going to be?   If you have a two or three inch overhang on the long side, and a five or six inch overhang on the short ends, A one and a half inch apron would hardly be noticeable.  You'd have a clean look and the top would be supported and the figure 8's would hold the top solidly to the base.  As for a shelf, there's several ways to do that.  

I'm not sure yet about those dimensions - I haven't even made the legs yet, let alone an apron. But your suggestion is a good one. A 3-inch overhang on the sides would leave just a foot between the two side aprons, which could make it a little tippy? But I've planned all along for the legs to curve outward and down, so that would keep the table balanced. I haven't figured out the shelf except for a vague vision if it resting in dadoes near the bottom of the legs, maybe not attached, just sitting there so it could be easily removed, like sliding it out.

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27 minutes ago, wtl said:

You're right that I was concerned about lifting the table, like in rearranging furniture or rugs or whatever. I've always lifted things like that by the top without problems, but it's always been factory-made stuff that seems glued together. I guess we could pick it up by the legs - though it's going to be pretty heavy. 

The factory made stuff is what i have problems with my homemade stuff can handle being lifted by the top .... if i attached it to being with. 4 figure 8s could probably hold 150 lbs maybe 200 las long as you don't try swinging it around to fend of a ninja like the do in action movies. I suppose if you are trying to fend off a ninja you have bigger worries than a coffee table.

30 minutes ago, wtl said:

I was wondering about how everything worked with the figure 8s - they're kind of basic for this kind of table, I guess. So it's legs attached (somehow) to apron/rails, and apron/rails to the top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgjFdibI9Xc

37 minutes ago, wtl said:

What kind of wood is that? I'm encouraged that you attached the top directly to the legs and it worked, even though the top looks really heavy.

Paper Birch. It's maybe 30 lbs idk is that heavy? Heavy doesn't start until i can't move it myself and depending on the shape that's around 150 lbs.

 

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15 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

The factory made stuff is what i have problems with my homemade stuff can handle being lifted by the top .... if i attached it to being with. 4 figure 8s could probably hold 150 lbs maybe 200 las long as you don't try swinging it around to fend of a ninja like the do in action movies. I suppose if you are trying to fend off a ninja you have bigger worries than a coffee table.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgjFdibI9Xc

Paper Birch. It's maybe 30 lbs idk is that heavy? Heavy doesn't start until i can't move it myself and depending on the shape that's around 150 lbs.

 

I got curious and weighed the bubinga - 48" x 18" x 3/4" - 19 pounds. It seems more maybe because I don't expect something that small to weigh so much.

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6 hours ago, RichardA said:

How far under the top are the legs going to be?   If you have a two or three inch overhang on the long side, and a five or six inch overhang on the short ends, A one and a half inch apron would hardly be noticeable.  You'd have a clean look and the top would be supported and the figure 8's would hold the top solidly to the base.  As for a shelf, there's several ways to do that.  

If I’m understanding correctly, op wants to attach the legs directly to the top, without an apron, using figure 8’s? If so, then IMO, no. 

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If your concern is will the figure 8 clips support the base unit go with the button method it's simple enough and can be made with scrap wood P1000790.JPG.588b0fd26314b0459ea4e38390c0765a.JPG

a groove or dado on your rail, a rabbet on the button to fit the grooved rail and one screw into the rail so the buttons can adjust to contraction and expansion of the top. Make sure you have a slight gap between the button and the under side of the top so the button acts like a clamp to hold both components together my live edge top weighs a lot and, I have no worries about picking the table up in any fashion,  

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40 minutes ago, higtron said:

If your concern is will the figure 8 clips support the base unit go with the button method it's simple enough and can be made with scrap wood P1000790.JPG.588b0fd26314b0459ea4e38390c0765a.JPG

a groove or dado on your rail, a rabbet on the button to fit the grooved rail and one screw into the rail so the buttons can adjust to contraction and expansion of the top. Make sure you have a slight gap between the button and the under side of the top so the button acts like a clamp to hold both components together my live edge top weighs a lot and, I have no worries about picking the table up in any fashion,  

Thanks!. I just discovered buttons today in my web searches. Yet another thing I'd never heard of. It's kind of remarkable that those little rabbets can hold all those heavy pieces together yet allow for movement. I saw this video that got me thinking about this method (except he uses a Domino that probably costs as much my table saw, miter saw and bandsaw combined): 

Are your rails attached to the legs with m&t? 

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I guess another way to provide some racking resistance would be to splay the legs (nothing I built - just a pic from an on-line retailer):

Lemington Rectangle Coffee Table with Splayed Legs

If you double up your stock, as you mentioned, to make the legs ~ 1-1/2" thick and, say 3" wide at the top (taper them, so they don't look clunky) and attach them to the top with a 3/8" deep mortise/tenon, you'd probably be okay on a coffee table.

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The problem with the piece @G Ragatz posted is that those tapered round legs veey likely have a hanger bolt screwed into the top, which in turn screws into a steel bracket that attaches under the table with at least 4 screws. That, plus the splay angle, provides a decent amount of resistance to racking. Those brackets are often available in home centers like Lowes, Home Depot, or Menards. I don't know if they can be adapted to a non-round leg form.

A similar arrangement could be made by using glued-on blocks to effectively thicken the top and provide a deeper mortice for a tenon on the leg to fit. And since it will be glued under the top anyway, you can attach it to the top of the legs with dowels, simply drilling through the block and into the leg from the top side. Orient the blocks so that the grain is parallel to the table top grain, the glue joint will be very strong. This orientation, and the relatively small span covered by the blocks, means wood movement isn't an issue. Enough dowels through the block and into the leg make a strong M&T joint. I think this design would be as strong or stronger than the pictured coffee table. The transition from leg to glue block to table top can even be chamfered or sculpted to enhance the appearance, with little sacrifice in strength. Only visible from underneath, anyway.

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My brother made this writing desk and several stools using nothing more than twin dominoes into the legs and top. It's been over 4 years since it was put into use with no issues at all. Given that the height of a coffee table is about half that of a desk, I would think it would be subject to less racking stress than this desk. I don't know of any failures with the stools either.

793398518_Writingdesk.jpg.41035d0727a82b4ffc3fe68903903281.jpg

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