curlyoak

New router

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nice score @curlyoak, i like an up-cut spiral bit for mortice work and i think 1/2' shank is the way to go. do you plan on cutting mortice joints deeper than 1 1/2" ? if so why not get both?

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1 hour ago, treeslayer said:

nice score @curlyoak, i like an up-cut spiral bit for mortice work and i think 1/2' shank is the way to go. do you plan on cutting mortice joints deeper than 1 1/2" ? if so why not get both?

I do not know the difference between an uncut or a down cut. If it matters this router is hand hold only as I have a table setup already. On table tops or wooden counters I cut them to rough length with a hand held saw. Big and heavy pieces that you bring the tools to the work. I frequently do bread board ends and true the cut with a router. So is a spiral bit the right application? I have no experience with spiral bits. In the past I would use a morticing bit. Also on big pieces this router will do profiles to the edges. In sizes that are smaller it goes to the table. My new Jessem.

I think a couple of sizes is smart. How does spirals compare to straight 2 bladed morticing bits? I imagine the spirals can be sharpened.

 

1 hour ago, G Ragatz said:

Congratulations on the new tool.  I have its little brother - the MOF001 - and like it a lot.

Here's a spiral bit with a 2" cutting depth.  I don't know the brand, but at least it seems someone makes them this length:

My next router is the little brother. Thank you for finding the bit. I hope to hear more on this thread about spirals, upcut, down cut, and applications.

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Up, or down throws the chips by your choice of direction.   Supposedly, cutting down on the shoulder is supposed to leave a smoother shoulder, but I haven't found this to make enough difference to matter on wood.

  Spirals leave a nice surface, and tend to have less tearout.  They're so sharp, you really need to be careful handling them.  I know the straight cutter bits can be sharpened, but I haven't used a spiral enough to need to sharpen one, so I really haven't even checked.  I use them for cutting the rabbets on the outside of Heart Pine window sash parts, and those cuts are finished perfectly in one pass, even on the brittle old Heart Pine.

My first choice in router bits is Whiteside, and right behind that is Amana.

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Yep what Tom said, up-cut brings the chips up toward the shank of the bit, down does the opposite, down is supposed to make a cleaner shoulder, up leaves a cleaner cut deep in the mortise but I haven’t noticed much of a difference either. 2 blade mortise cutters work also but I don’t think you get as good of a cut. Both can be sharpened, spiral would be more expensive of course but I’ve never had to have one sharpened

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In my experience, spiral bits plunge into the work much easier than straight cutters do. I prefer to plunge cut most of the waste out of the mortice, then clean the sides with a side cut pass.

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How the heck did spiral bits pass me by? This is a very good education for me. This website makes me feel like home.Skilled and talented people taking time so I can be better. I'm lucky to find this forum.

6 hours ago, Mick S said:

Just be aware that an upcut bit that size in a handheld router will exert a lot of tendency to pull the router down into the work. I much prefer a compression bit (which has both up and down spirals) for mortise work. They are neutral - the pulling forces are neither up nor down. I've had upcut spirals pull downward so hard that they change the depth stop on my plunge router. During a demo. With lots of  people watching. Of course.

 

3 hours ago, gee-dub said:

 

Whiteside 4RU5200 although I agree that in a plunge, an upcut spiral of that size can tend to act like a drill bit.  When using a 3/4" upcut spiral to cut dog holes, you really have to be ready; I have the plunge router clamped in posotopn before I start the plunge with those babies.  I run upcuts for mortise that will be hidden by the shoulders of the mating piece and downcut for mortise that may show the edge.  Upcuts clear the chips faster, downcuts are more friendly to veneers or fibrous woods.

 

I can just imagine this powerful beast pulling me around like a big bad dog on a leash with a 1/2" upcut. I like control. Especially on a 3.25 hp router. I'm thinking just use compression bits. Use the 1/2" shank and bit diameter for hoging out most of the wood and 1/2" shank with a 1/4" compression bit for a glue joint edge. Would a down cut bit on aggressive cuts actually make the router feel a little lighter? If so the weight of this lovely beast will easily counter balance the uplift on the machine. I think. I am so glad I asked this question. If I didn't ask first...then what a mess. But now that I know the advantages of spirals my work improves. I'm 68 and still learning. And glad of it too!

I'm glad to hear that Amana is highly ranked. On first thought I would go with Whiteside as it appears to be the preference. But there is a supplier here in town that they are my first choice. The service and kindness deserves support when possible. They feel it is an opportunity to go out of their way. It works on me. And they have Amana.

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There is a specific type of bit called a mortise compression bit that has a shorter upcut section at the tip than normal compression spirals. Its benefit is that you don't have to plunge as deep on the first pass before engaging the downcut portion. This helps nullify the downward pulling forces. 

Gee-dub makes a good point about when to use upcut vs downcut and the advantages of each. Compression spirals were developed to take advantage of both. 

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I will use the plunge for mortices. More often I will use it to make dado's and truing up end cuts on work that is too big  to attempt a dado on the table saw or too big for the radial saw. On bigger pieces the tool needs to be brought to the work. Smaller pieces on the table saw. Also I was thinking I might be able to joint an edge on big slabs. I can visualize doing that with a long straight edge. I think it would work. At this moment I am leaning toward the compression bit. Is the compression bit capable of resharpening like the up and down cut bits?

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I agree with the above conversations re: up and down.  I use a whiteside 1/2" up cut bit with a 2" cutting length.  That monster router is the one I have and, while you can take deep cuts with that and a spiral bit, I always take a series of shallow cuts.  That router has one fixed and 2 adjustable plunge stops so you can preset for three depths of passes if you want to.

 The mechansim in the Triton routers that allows you to switch from normal to Plunge with the push of a buttton may need to be dissassembled and cleaned (sawdust) every couple of years  (your results may vary).  More likely if used in a table.

Enjoy you new toy.

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1 hour ago, curlyoak said:

At this moment I am leaning toward the compression bit. 

Like saw blades, you may end up wanting to own more than one, and more than one type of spiral bit.

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2 hours ago, Ronn W said:

I always take a series of shallow cuts. 

That makes sense. What is equal to the deepest 'shallow' cut. If I need to remove 3/8" for a dado  I imagine I can do that in one pass?

 

1 hour ago, Mark J said:

more than one type of spiral bit.

Yep, I expect that. With this large bit, will I be able to raise the motor enough to reveal just 3/8"? or zero?

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2 hours ago, curlyoak said:

With this large bit, will I be able to raise the motor enough to reveal just 3/8"? or zero?

If you're talking about while you're mortising, then keep in mind that normally you'll have some kind if template between the router base and the workpiece. If the bit is too long to take an initial shallow pass, make the template thicker. Whatever you do, do not bottom the bit out in the collet trying to minimize the exposure of the bit. Router collets hold the bit shank by squeezing and pulling the bit into the collet taper. If you bottom the bit out in the collet it has no place to go and you'll spring the collet. It's ruined after that. Toss it and get a new one. Always back the bit out at least 1/8" from the bottom of the collet.

Remember, just because the router and bit are capable of taking a big bite, it's rarely a good idea. The exception being while doing a cleanup pass after you've wasted away most of the material.

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Thanks for the tip. For no reason but I do not in general bottom the bits. Now I have a reason. If it was needed to raise up the bit, I might have tried bottoming. Not ant more. I will also use the bit for dados. Will a 3.5" bit allow me to make a 3/8" on my new router. Or will I need a shorter bit for that?

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Carbide bits like the one your ordered are incredibly brittle.  It is possible, (likely) that the bit will shatter if you try to take to much with a single pass.  Don't ask how I know!  When it happens your shop becomes a very exciting place.  I really like using spiral bits, but now I am very careful about how much wood I take in a single pass.

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19 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

When it happens your shop becomes a very exciting place

And the pants you are wearing at the time. :P

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It has been repeated to take small amounts. Please Quantify. Is a 3/8" depth in a dado too much for a pas. If so what is correct.

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3 minutes ago, curlyoak said:

It has been repeated to take small amounts. Please Quantify. Is a 3/8" depth in a dado too much for a pas. If so what is correct.

Sounds like you need to do some test cuts, router speed, wood type, bit type all factor in. raid the scrap bin and start cutting, start small and work your way up, you’ll know when it’s too much, router sounds like it’s working too hard, burning, poor cuts and probably more I can’t think of. 

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7 hours ago, treeslayer said:

Sounds like you need to do some test cuts, router speed, wood type, bit type all factor in. raid the scrap bin and start cutting, start small and work your way up, you’ll know when it’s too much, router sounds like it’s working too hard, burning, poor cuts and probably more I can’t think of. 

This is exactly my thoughts in general. But due to the power of the router, I think (don't know) the motor has the power to take too deep of a pass and the only stress is on the bit. The motor does not bog down? 

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Another reason to take smaller cuts is the heat put into the bit.  You can go slow with a deep cut, or faster with a shallower cut, and put the same amount of heat in the bit.  Too much heat will dull the bit, regardless of the grade of carbide, faster.

We milled 3/4" off of a couple of hundred square feet of old Heart Pine flooring, so we could inlay a new layer.  The top was deteriorated badly, but the lower part was seen in the basement, and was fine.  I tried all sorts of different depth cuts, using the big Porter Cable plunge router, and finally settled on making three passes, of 1/4" each.  Any deeper, and the bit would dull pretty fast.  We were doing this all day long for several days.  Production was best with fast, shallow cuts, and the bits didn't go out to be sharpened as fast.  I kept some back, and forth in the mail to Whiteside.  I was not using spiral bits, but just ones I already had.     http://historic-house-restoration.com/Woodwork.html

Whiteside is my first preference, not only from the quality of the bits, but in dealings with the company.  In the mid 1970's, a Whiteside salesman gave me a bit to try.  Previous to that, I only knew Craftsman, Porter-Cable, and such.  It was a game changer.   In later years, I've ordered custom bits from them, and the dealings have always been pleasant.  When I kept bits in the mail to them on that flooring job, I would send them a bit with a ten dollar bill in the envelope, and it would come back sharpened three days later.  

The last time I needed some custom bits made, I sent them a mold of the profile I was copying.  Todd sent me an email saying that they no longer made singles, but had upgraded their machines, and now only produced runs of six each.  I didn't need, or want that many.  He had already sent the mold to another business down the road a little ways that does produce singles.

Once I called Whiteside about a bit I needed.  They said they didn't have that bit in their line, but did produce one for Eagle that was just what I wanted.  The top of the line Eagle bits are made by Whiteside, and the same high quality.

All this puts Whiteside in the same category of customer service as Lie Neilsen, and Lee Valley, as discussed in another recent thread.  Their bits are also as good as can possibly be made out of carbide.

In the early 1980's when Formica went out of favor for kitchen countertops, Corian became all the rage.  I needed some fabrication bits, and found some locally by Amana, so I bought them.  I was as pleased with them as I had been with the Whiteside bits.  I did solid suface countertops into the 90's, or whenever Granite became the next preferred thing, and those same Amana bits are still as useable as when I first bought them.  I only fabricated one house of solid surface tops a year, so it's not like they've been used in a production shop over that time, but it was still many dollars worth of work.

If Whiteside doesn't sell, or make a standard bit for someone else, and Amana sells what I want, I'll buy it with full confidence.  I also like other things that Amana sells, like saw blades, and jointer knives.  I'm very glad to see those bits that Mick posted about, that I previously hadn't seen.

 

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