MJC

Setting up shop - Newbie needs advice

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As Kev pointed out having to move and connect a portable DC will be an inducement to skip the DC for that one quick cut.  Particularly if you have to climb behind a machine and hook up the hose.  

Still I understand the need for flexibility and mobility in the workshop.  I don't move my tools often, but everything in my shop, even the workbench, is mobile.   The solution I went with was to run flex hose from each machine to the DC using Rockler's quick connect system.  So all I have to do is walk over to where the DC is parked and hook up the proper hose.  

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The hose and connectors were expensive and flex hose isn't as good straight pipe, but these were compromises that worked for me.  

By the way, the P-Flux was my choice because at the time of purchase it had the deepest cone in a unit that would still fit under the low point of my basement shop.  

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1 hour ago, Mark J said:

As Kev pointed out having to move and connect a portable DC will be an inducement to skip the DC for that one quick cut.  Particularly if you have to climb behind a machine and hook up the hose.  

Still I understand the need for flexibility and mobility in the workshop.  I don't move my tools often, but everything in my shop, even the workbench, is mobile.   The solution I went with was to run flex hose from each machine to the DC using Rockler's quick connect system.  So all I have to do is walk over to where the DC is parked and hook up the proper hose.  

20190908_090228.thumb.jpg.36b3055d7174f1a234c858402740fbbd.jpg

The hose and connectors were expensive and flex hose isn't as good straight pipe, but these were compromises that worked for me.  

By the way, the P-Flux was my choice because at the time of purchase it had the deepest cone in a unit that would still fit under the low point of my basement shop.  

Ok this is interesting and I can see the benefit here. I think the other reason mobile was good for me was because of not knowing how to pipe everything in with a stationary unit. With this setup is everything just done with flex hoses and no duct work is being ran through the shop? I am not saying later down the road I wouldn't but it just isn't a project I am ready for right now. I have a lot to learn first before I start down that road.

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12 hours ago, Coop said:

What are the dimensions of your shop area? 

It is 19.5 x 19 and ceilings are roughly 8.5 unfinished  

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21 minutes ago, MJC said:

Ok this is interesting and I can see the benefit here. I think the other reason mobile was good for me was because of not knowing how to pipe everything in with a stationary unit. With this setup is everything just done with flex hoses and no duct work is being ran through the shop? I am not saying later down the road I wouldn't but it just isn't a project I am ready for right now. I have a lot to learn first before I start down that road.

Everything I've done is with flex hose, but one could use some sections of smooth pipe, especially for a long run to the other side of the shop.  I have five machines using dust collection and all but 1 are connected with the flex on the floor, which is not generally underfoot when the machine is in use, and disconnected and put aside when the machine is not in use.  The flex going to the lathe (which is also the machine farthest from the DC) is hung from the ceiling to keep it out of the way.  I am principly a turner, so this hose is connected most of the time.  

Like you, down the road (and probably in a future shop) I might put in smooth pipe, but for now I am too lazy.  Also I don't move the DC around, but I do want to be able to rearrange all the equipment easily.  I do move the router table to use it and the DC to get at the sump pump.  

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What system do you have? How much ceiling height do you have and your DC is on wheels? That thing looks like a monster to move.

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Ceiling height is 7 feet under the I-beam which is the lowest point, otherwise 8 feet in the rest of the space.  The DC is the Laguna P-Flux 3 (3HP, 240V).  It comes on casters and it rolls easily in my space, including across the expansion joints.  I do not, however, move it much unless re-arranging the space (that is its third parking spot) or I have to get at the sump pump.  So my goal was moveable, not portable.  

I am not saying that the P-Flux is perfect.  I have had it for a few years now and when I made the purchase it was the best solution for me and my space.  I went with 3HP so I would have power to waste knowing I was going to use flex hose.  

However, since I bought it, Oneida has come up with some other offerings that are not so "vertically demanding" and that are moveable.  I would definitely look at those and also see what Clear View is making these days. 

My understanding is that the cone of a cyclone is optimally 11 degrees which makes it rather tall.  By the time you add a dust bin, impeller and motor the entire unit gets quite tall.  The P-flux and other short cone units are less tall, but at the expense of a less optimal (and efficient) cyclone geometry.  

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My opinion is there is a lot of trouble with a permanent DC too early in some one's woodworking hobby. You don't really know what your shop will look like or how the work flow will work with your space. You have a miter saw and table saw in the middle of your shop and to design dust collection around that is going to be difficult and I guarantee that setup will change which will require ducting changes. I jokingly said not that long ago that i wouldn't relocate for a 100% pay raise, because i already had my dust collection system setup and operating well and it'd be too much work to do it again.

A good option is to use a mobile collector that you may not move around but you will use flex hose to move from machine to machine. It keeps the DC system flexible and adaptable to shop changes. That Oneida mobile unit will cover single machine collection from almost every woodworking machine with the exception of CNC or possible a large 2 port drum sander. This will allow your shop to evolve as you add machines or change them around to suit a better layout. With a basement shop you have to work around more hurdles than some others have to deal with. E.G. stairs, HVAC, plumbing, Electrical, odd foundation layout. You may have these you may not but these things aren't typically present in most garage shops or custom built outbuildings.

Once you get setup a 1.5 HP collector will work well with a duct setup. A 6" main with short 4" drops will be well suited to that collector. You will need to have a well sealed system (which is easy to achieve) that utilizes blast gates at each tool that you open and close as necessary. The big clear--vue collectors and Oneida pro collectors are overkill for hobby shops that only have 1 person working in them, 1 person can only use 1 tool at a time. At most any 1 tool needs is 600-750 cfm. Most of those big collectors will not operate efficiently collecting from only 1 tool. Cyclones need a minimum airflow to properly separate dust from the air and if there isn't enough it will prematurely pack dust into your filter causing problems. There are caveats to this but they are complicated, very complicated.

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13 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Cyclones need a minimum airflow to properly separate dust from the air

@Chestnut, I recall somewhere else on the forum you mentioned that load on the motor was decreased if the airflow was decreased.  Something about once a vacuum was created there was less load on the impeller.  So I am interested in the above statement.  

The P-Flux comes with an 8" intake and a removable manifold with three 4" intakes.  Since I only use one machine at a time I've tended to use one of the 4" ports and keep the other two capped.  But I've always wondered if this was the "best" arrangement.  Based on your earlier comment I don't think I'm overloading the motor, and I'm probably getting the largest possible pressure gradient, but how about overall airflow (CFM) and separation?

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18 minutes ago, Mark J said:

@Chestnut, I recall somewhere else on the forum you mentioned that load on the motor was decreased if the airflow was decreased.  Something about once a vacuum was created there was less load on the impeller.  So I am interested in the above statement.  

The P-Flux comes with an 8" intake and a removable manifold with three 4" intakes.  Since I only use one machine at a time I've tended to use one of the 4" ports and keep the other two capped.  But I've always wondered if this was the "best" arrangement.  Based on your earlier comment I don't think I'm overloading the motor, and I'm probably getting the largest possible pressure gradient, but how about overall airflow (CFM) and separation?

Air has weight, the more air you move the more weight you move. It takes more power to move more weight.

With a fixed pipe size to increase air flow you have to increase the velocity of the air. Increasing the velocity of the air will also increase it's inertia and the inertia of particles within the air. If the air and particles hit a curve they are flung towards the outside. This is the mechanic that separates the dust from the air. Air is lighter so it's easier to redirect that air to the center of the cyclone towards the impeller. Dust travels around the outside of the cyclone eventually slowing down and dropping into the bin.

If you have a cyclone with a large diameter you need a faster column of air to efficiently separate the dust from the air column. Larger HP cyclones have larger diameter barrels because they can pull a bit faster air through the same size duct. This only works if there are enough ports open to allow that air into the ducts. If you choke down the duct size the motor will draw less amperage yes but the air velocity won't seperate the dust from the air causing the dust to go to the filter stack instead. Efficency in this reagard is not an enegry measurement but a seperation measurement.

A 5 hp Clear vue cyclone may separate 40% of 1 micron particles when feed with 400 cfm (a single 4" port). If 3 4" ports are open or 1 6" port that may be closer to 75% separation of 1 micron particles. (this is just an example and not reality but is not drastically far from reality.)

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2 hours ago, Chestnut said:

If you have a cyclone with a large diameter you need a faster column of air to efficiently separate the dust from the air column. Larger HP cyclones have larger diameter barrels because they can pull a bit faster air through the same size duct. This only works if there are enough ports open to allow that air into the ducts. If you choke down the duct size the motor will draw less amperage yes but the air velocity won't seperate the dust from the air causing the dust to go to the filter stack instead. Efficency in this reagard is not an enegry measurement but a seperation measurement.

This is also the reason that you want to match the size of the cyclone to the dust collector. In my case, I made sure to get the smaller super dust deputy to pair with my 1 HP collector, so that it would be able to pull enough air to separate efficiently. It always puzzles me a bit when I see setups with the HF collector connected to the xl size super dust deputy, since it seems like it wouldn't pull enough air for it (although I'm sure it still works). 

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16 hours ago, Bmac said:

In your initial post you listed your power tools, but not sanders or other woodworking specific tools. If you have these things than I apologize, but these are important additions to my shop. First you need a dedicated vac for your sanders, I use festool and love it, totally love it for dust control. There are other brands out there, whichever brand for me one of these systems are critical. Secondly, if you have the funds, not a necessary tool but a great tool is the Festool Domino. Festool is over priced and I only own their sanders and the Domino because they are great tools. 

I have a couple Dewalt 20v hand sanders. Today this was one was delivered  and I got it put together this evening. I have narrowed my search down on the DC to 2 models and one of them is supposed to handle the smaller tools. Here is a link to the one I am speaking about.

https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/new-systems/supercell/supercell-mobile-14-gal-high-pressure-dust-collector

shop5.jpg

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With small hand sanders I prefer the smaller dedicated units. The larger unit you linked to should definitely be a possibility but for my smaller tools the shop vacs, two prime examples are Fein and Festool, will probably do a better job at the localized fine dust extraction you produce with hand sanders. Here's a link;

https://www.rockler.com/the-best-in-shop-vacuums-fein-vs-festool

My Festool "dust extractor" sits under a work bench right where I do a lot of my sanding. Small footprint and out of the way. Turns on automatically when I turn on my sander. Never think about it. Love it.

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That Oneida Supercell looks interesting to me for a small shop running one tool at a time. It seems to be a hybrid between a normal cyclone and a vac. Maybe a shop vac on steroids?  It has the suction and velocity of a vac and the cfm of a larger machine. Can it really do the job of both?

Has anyone used or seen one of these in action? 

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2 hours ago, elrodk said:

Has anyone used or seen one of these in action? 

They're pretty new, it was just introduced this past July at AWFS in Las Vegas.

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Well it wouldn’t be the first time I wasted some money. Let’s hope this won’t be one of those cases. 

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15 hours ago, MJC said:

Well it wouldn’t be the first time I wasted some money. Let’s hope this won’t be one of those cases. 

I don't think it would be a waste. Oneida is a solid company, and this looks like an innovative unit. If anything, I would expect that it would collect a lot more dust from a 4" port than most standard dust collectors would. I personally really like the look of it.

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You should have a Main line down the center with branches. What ever the beginning neck is on the DC should either be 5 or 6" I think. Run one main..all I have left is a band saw, sanding center and a RAS then I'm complete....if it doesn't take me 10 more years to get there...

 

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Congrats . When I saw three motors in that thing , it reminds me of a Fuji HVLP, I think Onieda has something here  Let us hear how it works out . . 

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So I am trying to decide the best way to setup the fitting on the dust port of my table saw. As you can see from the pictures I don't have much room behind the port and the partition on the workbench. I have a few choices here I could go with. I could put a 90 degree fitting on and go out to the left which is about 24 inches or point it down and go out the bottom but then I would have to put another bend in there to bring it out to the side. The option I don't really want to do it straight out the back because I don't want to go through the partition and would like to keep the PVC on one side of the bench. I was thinking the least amount fittings or bends on the line the better but that is just my uneducated guess. Any ideas or suggestions?

I almost forgot to ask. Is it better to go over this with a piece of flex hose or put a PVC fitting inside of it? I have a fitting that slides right in that is 2" that fits the inside diameter perfect. 

 

 

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Yea, you have a tough nut to crack there.  Two simple rules to alway try to keep in play is use as little of the flex hose as you can and avoid tight turns it is better to use two 45 degree fittings then one 90 degree fitting.  I know none of that helps you. ;)

How about moving the placement of your saw so you have more room between it and the partition.  You would probably have to build in a filler strip on the top deck on the outfield side but it would give you a more usable amount of room off your port.  Looking at your pictures I am not sure you have enough room to even get a 90 on there as it sits now.

 

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I already have saw built into table so changing it now would require a lot of work. I already have slots cut in bench top for the fence rails. If I move the table any I would throw these off so that’s not an option without redoing the bench top. 
 

i have enough room for the fitting as I’ve already tried it just to make sure it was going to fit. I can stick it in there and snap a picture if you want to see what that situation looks like?

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2 minutes ago, MJC said:

I already have saw built into table so changing it now would require a lot of work. I already have slots cut in bench top for the fence rails. If I move the table any I would throw these off so that’s not an option without redoing the bench top. 
 

i have enough room for the fitting as I’ve already tried it just to make sure it was going to fit. I can stick it in there and snap a picture if you want to see what that situation looks like?

I think that answers your question then. You might as well try it with the 90, and use whatever routing gives you the least bends in the pipe. At least with a shop vac, it's got higher suction (with lower airflow) so it can cope with a few more bends.

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