Hard Wax Oil Finishes

[roldogg]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:02 PM, Chestnut said:

Is it long term more durable than poly?

I’ve used Osmo Poyx (Satin and Gloss) on a handful of projects, and I think the biggest attraction of the Osmo is for people who don’t want a "plastic" finish. With the Osmo, the oil seeps into the wood while the wax stays on top so the feel of a finished project is a smooth natural feel of the wood. Believe it or not, this finish has been around for 40 years or so, but since it’s made in Germany, maybe they just recently decided to expand their markets beyond Europe. It has always been a finish for floors, but now more people have been using it on furniture and other things. Even though all their products are labeled as food safe, they carry another line, Osmo Top Oil, which is supposed to be safe to use finishing cutting boards/butcher blocks. I’ve bought some of this to try, but haven’t had time to make a cutting board since buying it. When applying the Osmo Polyx on walnut, or any open grain wood, after flooding the surface, you can use a green Scotch Brite pad to rub the Osmo on the surface, create a slurry, and this will fill the grain on these woods. The final coats on open grain or all coats on closed grain woods work best when applied with the white pads, which are softer and leave no scratch marks. These 2 tables I’ve finished with Osmo Polyx Satin, and I’m happy with how they came out.

 

[rodger.]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:00 AM, Mick S said:

With Osmo you just clean the surface and reapply a new coat or coats. Blends right in. Unlike lacquer, poly doesn't melt into the underlying layer and blend in, but just sits on top, so getting it to match the surrounding area is trickier. Any irregularity has to be removed before reapplying

I have been itching to try Osmo, but they have a very large product line, and I don't really know where to start. It's pretty expensive if you buy the wrong product. Is 3043 suitable for furniture?

[Mick S]

9 hours ago, rodger. said:

I have been itching to try Osmo, but they have a very large product line, and I don't really know where to start. It's pretty expensive if you buy the wrong product. Is 3043 suitable for furniture?

Yes, that's what I would recommend trying first. It's my go-to finish.

[rodger.]

1 hour ago, Mick S said:

Yes, that's what I would recommend trying first. It's my go-to finish.

Ok, that's good information. Thanks. 

 

To apply, do you use the "white Scotch brite pad" method?

[Mick S]

1 hour ago, rodger. said:

To apply, do you use the "white Scotch brite pad" method?

Yep.

[Llama]

I used Osmo for this table. I usually spread the finish on the surface with a plastic applicator. I have the West Systems epoxy ones (the yellow kind).

When applying it it is best to get an even coat on all end/edge grain first, then cover the top. If you get a drip on the sides it will be darker than additional coats.

[G S Haydon]

Oil based Hardwax Oil finishes are great.(there are water based Hardwax Oils)

Very forgiving to use and give great results. You can apply many very thin coats and once fully cured buff it with some copier paper for a great feel.

I don't like the coloured oils. I get the colour right with an oil based dye first, let it fully dry and then apply Hardwax Oil.

https://www.gshaydon.co.uk/interiors/libraries

[Martin-IT]

Rubio is a 2 parts product. Is Osmo the same ?

I saw videos with rubio, they use a plastic scraper to spread it, then they buff it.

Much different with Osmo ? 

Rubio is a single coat product. with Osmo, how many coat do you apply ?

[Gary Beasley]

See the video posted elsewhere in this thread.

[Martin-IT]

Osmo: even with the satin, with more coat the sheen will be higher ?

how long between coat ?

[Gary Beasley]

Yes the sheen gets higher to a point. It dries pretty quick, if you leave it sit for too long before buffing it you can get streaks. 

[Llama]

22 hours ago, Martin-IT said:

Rubio is a 2 parts product. Is Osmo the same ?

I saw videos with rubio, they use a plastic scraper to spread it, then they buff it.

Much different with Osmo ? 

Rubio is a single coat product. with Osmo, how many coat do you apply ?

Osmo is one part.

I use a plastic spreader then buff it. Uses less finish this way.

I use two coats. 

Monocoat is a misleading name, as Rubio recommend two coats for certain woods.

[Mark J]

So it doesn't sound like there is much difference between the two products?

How vigorously does one have to buff?  From videos I've seen, including Marc's it looks like the buffing needs to be aggressive, i.e. by machine driven buffer.   My pieces are small (hand held) and the finishing pretty much needs to be by hand, i.e. rag.

[roldogg]

I buff it by hand with an old t-shirt/cotton rag in each hand. I recently bought the Osmo Top Oil product and tried it out on an end grain cutting board. According to the description of Osmo Top Oil, it can be used on cutting surfaces. I applied it similar to how I applied mineral oil, rub it in, wipe off the excess, repeat 2-3 times. I think this is going to be my go to finishing product for cutting boards from now on. It doesn’t build a film, it penetrates the wood, makes it water resistant, and the best thing is that it doesn’t darken end grain like mineral oil does so the colors of the woods used really stand out. I guess now I’ll have to find out how durable it is.

[pkinneb]

Very Nice!!

[Cliff]

I hadn't seen this thread before, but it just so happens I finished my desk in Rubio. I honestly think it does not compare to ARS. It's VERY flat. Like almost no shine at all. I'm torn on the feel of it. I like the way it feels but I also love that glass smooth ARS feel. I had two primary reasons for using it, I knew I'd often bang the desk up and wanted to repair it easily - and one coat with 7 days cure time. 

I really think there is a learning curve to applying the finish to get maximum value. I used far too much on the top of my desk. 

I'm really interested in Osmo, but I won't try it until I've used up the Rubio. And honestly, I got a gallon of ARS I need to use too before I buy another. 

[rodger.]

17 hours ago, Cliff said:

I hadn't seen this thread before, but it just so happens I finished my desk in Rubio. I honestly think it does not compare to ARS. It's VERY flat. Like almost no shine at all. I'm torn on the feel of it. I like the way it feels but I also love that glass smooth ARS feel. I had two primary reasons for using it, I knew I'd often bang the desk up and wanted to repair it easily - and one coat with 7 days cure time. 

I really think there is a learning curve to applying the finish to get maximum value. I used far too much on the top of my desk. 

I'm really interested in Osmo, but I won't try it until I've used up the Rubio. And honestly, I got a gallon of ARS I need to use too before I buy another. 

I have tried countless finishes over the years, and I have weened it t down to my "go to" finishes that yield the results I want (HVLP High performance Poly for water based and hand applied Wipe-on poly for oil based). I always wax my projects as well, with a beeswax blend I quite like.

I would like to add two new finishes to round out my projects. I am going to try spraying "Kem Aqua" from Sherwin Williams for the painted look I am starting to use more often, and the OSMO for quick and easy small projects. I shall see if either of them make it into my normal repertoire.

[Llama]

On 5/21/2020 at 6:11 AM, Mark J said:

So it doesn't sound like there is much difference between the two products?

How vigorously does one have to buff?  From videos I've seen, including Marc's it looks like the buffing needs to be aggressive, i.e. by machine driven buffer.   My pieces are small (hand held) and the finishing pretty much needs to be by hand, i.e. rag.

Depends... 

You can buff it to a higher sheen once the wax has hardened. I usually don't bother.

[Mark J]

I picked up a half pint can of Osmo Polyx satin to try from Lee Valley and I thought I would share my observations and impressions with you.  Which makes this a review of sorts, so pardon the length of the post. 

My goal for a wood surface differs from what’s customary for furniture making and is way different than finishing floors. So some context: I make handheld objects that are essentially intended to be fondled. So I am looking for a hyper-smooth surface, which preserves the wood look and wood feel. To get to where I want to be I sand the wood to at least P600, but recently P1200 and even P3000. so it doesn’t make for an apples to apples comparison with the typical table or dresser.

I should also mention that my finishing area is smack in the middle of the work bench in a dusty shop and other than running the overhead air cleaner for a couple of hours or waiting till the morning for finish applications I make no other preparations.

I compared the Osmo Polyx with Bartley Gel Stain Clear Coat I usually use on my pieces. The Bartley product is a satin sheen oil based varnish and, as near as I can figure out, a polyurethane alyd resin blend. For this evaluation I started off with a small scrap board of clear maple, about 4 x 8 inches. I also had a cherry cherry burl bowl I recently finished turning that I was willing to risk. The cherry bowl and maple scrap were both sanded to P1200. For comparison purposes I had three turned pieces that were already done with the Bartley finish. The first was from spalted maple and sanded to P1200; the second was from the same clear maple that had produced the scrap board, but this piece had only been sanded to P600. Last I had a finished cherry piece which had been sanded to P3000.

Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a lot of guidance from Osmo on how to apply it to small objects, but in addition to the videos posted above (which were helpful and which I re-watched), I found these instructions on line and another video that were also useful.

http://www.raincoastalternatives.com/files/3613/1810/6146/3054Furniturev2.1_HOW_TO.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGGGwHzPu64

When I opened the can I was struck by the resemblance of the Polyx in consistency to the fat laden liquid released when you carve a roasted chicken or turkey. There is a vague odor, which is not particularly unpleasant. Smells sort of like candle wax. Osmo spreads, or should I say smears, easily and is somewhat self leveling so it lends itself to application with a white non-abrasive pad. I have to say I was skeptical of using the pad because nothing that looks like it could scour a pot is non-abrasive enough for me to want to rub all over something I’ve sanded that smooth. But it worked fine. It certainly consumed less of the material than a rag would have done.

I applied tiny amounts at a time and it spread remarkably far, not unlike one would expect, say, from the aforementioned chicken fat. Once spread around I then went over the entire application area a second time, re-spreading without adding more material. As to scrubbing or pressing the Polyx into the wood, that did not seem to be necessary. I used moderately firm pressure. But recall that my surface is hyper-sanded. Flooring prepped to 100 grit is going to be another matter—there will be more tiny nooks and crannies.

With my first coating on the bowl I did the inside and outside together in one go. Thing is you’ve a moderately heavy bowl with a very smooth surface that is now covered in chicken fat. You want to be mindful of your grip. I decided to take the second coat one side at a time.

After the spreading the finish the surface looks good, but there will be some visible streaking. I let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes, then I wiped and buffed with a clean cotton rag. As you begin to wipe with the rag there is fairly high friction. This dissipates quickly as the surface becomes smoothed. After buffing the surface looks great, but the coating has not set up yet. I’ve heard different numbers, but the instructions I found call for a 12 hour cure between coats. I applied two coats and there is no sanding between coats.

So how does this compare to the application process for Bartley? The Bartley Gel varnish is very high viscosity, about like pudding, and much thicker than General Finishes’ gel varnish. It is a straight forward 3 rag application: wipe on; wipe off; moderately vigorous hand buffing. All steps are done one after the other, no waiting. Cure between coats is 6 hours. There is no sanding between coats. I typically apply 3 coats, but the third does very little.

So actually, I have to give the ease of application edge to Bartley. I do not have to wait 20 minutes for the buff step, and with a 6 hour cure I can theoretically get three coats on in one day, if the first coat is done early enough in the morning. Now I may not have the Osmo application process dialed in, there is a lot of variation in instructions out there and next to no one is actually talking about how to apply to handheld objects, but it does seem to need to dry a bit before buffing. And I have noticed some lingering smell on the cherry burl even after a day (that may be related to it being burl), but I’m not sure whether or not you can re-coat sooner than 12 hours.

So how good is the finished surface? Lets look at the maple test board and the two Bartley comparisons.

The Osmo on P1200 clear maple results in a super smooth, satin gloss, flawless dust nib free surface, that feels silky smooth and down right sensuous to the gliding finger tip.

The Bartley on P1200 spalted maple results in a super smooth, satin gloss, flawless dust nib free surface, that feels silky smooth and down right sensuous to the gliding finger tip.

Comparing the test board to P600 clear maple, the Bartley is noticeably more amber where the test board of Osmo is clear.

The two cherry pieces also compare similarly. The P3000 piece may be ever so slightly smoother, but I really couldn’t tell much difference. Ambering is harder to appreciate.

I was expecting something special from the Osmo. Color was the main difference, but I really couldn’t see or feel much difference in sheen or smoothness. My hypothesis is that surface smoothness is multi-factorial and at these fine grits sanding is the more powerful factor. Quite possibly I would appreciate a smoothness difference if the surfaces were prepped to 220. I think that it is quite possible that once set up the Osmo surface has less sliding friction than the polyurethane varnish. But any difference appears lost in this setting.

It’s worth noting that neither product had a problem with dust nibs, so there is no need to sand between coats. I think this insensitivity to nibs is because neither is particularly tacky after the application process is complete. In the case of the Bartley I believe this is because it is so viscous to begin with that there is not a lot of solvent that needs to evaporate before it begins to set up. In fact it is usually dry to the touch in an hour or so. Maybe something similar is happening with the Osmo product. I will say that with both products there is a limited working time; your best to do small (2’ x 2’) areas at a time.  Now, if you feel morally compelled to sand between coats it’s possible to do so with either product. That sanding is just something I do not want to have to deal with. I’ve tried GF ARS, High Performance and Wood Turner’s Finish. They are all highly nib-o-philic.

So that’s my story. I think the principle difference between the Osmo and Bartley products is that Bartley is a little easier/faster to apply while Osmo causes less ambering (and may be easier to repair). What’s not clear to me is how much of an effect hyper-sanding might have had on these results. In this setting both deliver very pleasing results and I think it’s hard to choose.  I could be happy using either.  

 

Edited to add:  I did some further testing, and 4 posts further down I have added some additional remarks.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Mark J

[wtnhighlander]

Nice review, Mark. Good to have a comparable product to hold the Osmo up against.

 

[pkinneb]

27 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

Nice review, Mark. Good to have a comparable product to hold the Osmo up against.

 

x2

[Mark J]

Just started leafing through my latest copy of FWW and there is an ad for a Briwax hard wax oil product.  I don't know if this is a recently released product or one I've just recently noticed, but it's interesting to have a choice from a more familiar name (might be more likely to get on local store shelves).  The ad says the product is water-based and that they have solvent based versions as well.  

[Mark J]

I had a couple of 2 x 3 pieces of walnut cut from the same board for some project that were never used.  I decided to use them to test the Osmo vs. the Bartley finishes.  This is a more apples to apples comparison than I did before where there were other differences between the test samples.  

I sanded each sample to P1200 and wiped clean with MS.  Then I applied 3 coats of Bartley to the piece on the left and 2 coats of PolyX-Oil to the piece on the right. 

The lighting in the photo's is not great, but I tried to optimize the angle.  Each piece was inverted for the second photo.

I don't know if this will come through in the photos, but what I observe is a greater luster with the Osmo, and the grain details are more vivid.  This is consistent with what others have been saying, but wasn't evident to me in the previous comparisons.

The differences are not extreme, but noticable, particularly with certain lightinh angles.  The Bartley varnish is a desirable finish viewed on its own, but it does pale a little bit (literally) when side by side with the Osmo.  

[drzaius]

Wow! I think the difference is almost extreme. You certainly wouldn't need to view the side by side to notice a difference. I love the look the Osmo gives it.

Thanks for the testing.

[wtnhighlander]

+1. The side-by-side tells the story, for sure!