Why do home shops and youtubers hate / fear shapers?


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45 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Jar944, do you live in North America? You mention that you find shpers regularly for decent prices on Craig's List, i just looked and there was only 1 here that was even worth looking at and it was $1,100 used for a powermatic. In your opinion what is the minimum a person should look for in a shaper? I feel like the jump to a shaper isn't worth it unless the top has a miter slot. One of the big benefits i see of a shaper is being able to use a miter gauge for cope and stick construction.

Do you have resources for some of the larger advantages that shapers offer over a router table? It is obvious to those that have used them extensively but for people that only have exposure to router tables it's not cut and dry. Like I said above the miter slot is a big advantage but that is also something that I could and have put into a router table.

lol yes I'm in north America. Craigslist and fb market place are both decent for locating shapers.  I keep an eye out and the deals are there. 

I currently have 3 shapers and had another that I sold last fall. The first 3 were craigslist finds and the last was fb. Ive seen a lot and only bought when they were good prices.

I first bought a 3hp delta hd for $450. It included a pile of cutter heads. This was the one I eventually sold

Next was a 5hp grizzly tilting spindle and sliding table (with power feeder) for $1000

Third was a bridgewood 511 5.5hp sliding table and a power feeder for $400. It needed spindle bearings and some feeder parts (about $200 worth of parts)

Most recently was a casolin f90 9hp sliding table shaper for $1300. It was a bit high price wise, but is somewhat rare here in the US and built slightly heavier then the more common scmi t130s

Only the delta has a miter slot. (Because the rest have sliding tables) but for coping I use a sled against the fence as its quicker to setup.

Beyond power to make single pass cuts (or flush trim 5" of stock at a time, the biggest advantage is the cut quality. You should not have to sand moulding off a shaper (or rails and stiles for cabinet parts) they should come out ready to use.  Things like tenons are single pass affairs.  Unfortunately the resources are few and far between. Some information is out there (there are a few books available) but most is hidden in forums. (SMC, owwm and woodweb have the most shaper content) it takes a bit to digest it through.

Using a backfence (or outboard fence) to profile and size sticking in one pass is another advantage.

 

Edit

Forgot to include a couple links to YouTube videos

 

 

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I don’t have room for a ROS. 

This discussion comes around every couple of years. I think most of it comes down to the type of work we do as hobbyists vs. pros. A shaper is great for moldings and edge profiles, but how can it do w

Sweet then I'm a very bad professional woodworker and my hobby is engineering....

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21 minutes ago, Tpt life said:

Often, safe use of a shaper means a power feeder. This also means cleaner work if a micro climb cut can be done safely. That means added cost on a hobby budget. I think for most it is that kind of cost that keeps us away. The question about YT seems obvious though. Content creators target things you already own. If 200 shapers exist in 5 million shops (made up stats,) then the YT popularity is not likely to be high. 

I would agree feeders are really a requirement for safe and efficient shaper operations. Used they are relatively inexpensive. I think i have 5 now (was 6) right now and didn't pay more than $125 for any of them.  (Paid $25, $40 and $125 for 3 of them, 3 others came with machines)

 

I do understand the purpost of dont use it if no one has it aspect of youtube.. it leaves something to be desired though.

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1 hour ago, Jar944 said:

A hobby by definition is something done regularly in your leisure time for pleasure. 

Woodwork could be a hobby. Doing a project for yourself does not make it a hobby.

For example I hate with a passion laying large format tile.. and moderatly dislike drywall taping. Both are aspects of projects I have done and will continue to do for myself. Neither are hobbys.

 

 

 

If one thinks of it as a hobby, it's a hobby. End of strory.

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Have any pics or videos to illustrate cutting dovetails (corner joint or sliding) with a shaper? I'm curious how a shaper handles operations where the work passes over the spinning cutter, rather than tangentially to it.

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1 hour ago, BillyJack said:

I think your confused....a person working on projects for them self is exactly a hobby.. What make it anything else?

 

21 minutes ago, drzaius said:

If one thinks of it as a hobby, it's a hobby. End of strory.

I agree with you anything can be a hobby if you want it to be or feel that it is. I don't think I said anything different and apologies if it came across that way.

What I disagree with is saying that anyone working on a project for themselves is automatically engaged in a hobby.  

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6 minutes ago, wtnhighlander said:

Have any pics or videos to illustrate cutting dovetails (corner joint or sliding) with a shaper? I'm curious how a shaper handles operations where the work passes over the spinning cutter, rather than tangentially to it.

You would need a router bit collet and a router bit in the shaper for that.  This is one instance where the handheld router (or router table) is the better way. 

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5 hours ago, Jar944 said:

What I disagree with is saying that anyone working on a project for themselves is automatically engaged in a hobby. 

Drywall tapeing is a chore no matter what way you swing it.

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You know your on a hobby forum correct? If you go to Woodweb there are thousands using shapers over there. 

These forums have been up for years, nothing new to them about shapers they don't need...

If you'd like to show pictures of your shop. Make a post about your shop......We all like to see what everyone's doing with there shops....

Kitchen cabinetry is kinda blah, blah. Build furniture? that's nice to see too...

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1 hour ago, BillyJack said:

You know your on a hobby forum correct? If you go to Woodweb there are thousands using shapers over there. 

These forums have been up for years, nothing new to them about shapers they don't need...

If you'd like to show pictures of your shop. Make a post about your shop......We all like to see what everyone's doing with there shops....

Kitchen cabinetry is kinda blah, blah. Build furniture? that's nice to see too...

Yes im aware this is a hobby forum. That was the point bringing up the shaper in the home shop. I'm  already on woodweb, but they know the advantages of shapers over there. I still think a shaper is a better tool for the home shop than a router table. 

As for my shop ill post something up in the correct forum, once I browse around to figure out where that is. I dabble in cabinets, millwork and furniture on occasion.

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There really not much gain to a hobby woodworker to spare expense on shapers unless the full intent is to be productive or   to make money...

Many on here are trying to get from A-Z on a few dollars. I can tell from the pictures you are putting a lot of money in cutters for shapers which would be a waste to 99.9% here. Many buy shapers when they come up cheap, but nobody is going to put a small fortune in cutters for a a few pieces of furniture for themselves....

 

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44 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Why do some assume that because it's a hobby that fast efficient production isn't important? :unsure:

I don't know that I understand what left and right coping is and why it's a benefit...

 

44 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

Why do some assume that because it's a hobby that fast efficient production isn't important? :unsure:

I don't know that I understand what left and right coping is and why it's a benefit...

Because as soon as professionals start talking production , hobby wood workers start talking about its just a hobby and there's no hurry. Efficiency  is #1 but it comes with a price many woodworkers aren't prepared for..

 

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@BillyJackmakes a good point, although it is likely to apply on a case-by-case basis. I am one of those who can not justify the cost of a shaper and cutters, because the router does what I need, in a timeline I can live with, at a much lower cost. Not saying it is the best means of accomplishing certain tasks, but adequate and within budget.  Production for money is a different story.

Pretty certain that Eric and Don (Particleboard) had this exact discussion, three or four years back.

 

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I cant ... even when I started my shop and ran it for two years successfully.  The economical crash killed me. If I had stayed in business I was close to hiring help and moving up to weaver shapers. Got caught before the initial investment...

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7 hours ago, Chestnut said:

I don't know that I understand what left and right coping is and why it's a benefit...

With a router you can only cope a rail in one direction (Because you can't run a router in reverse) it leaves you with two options.

1. Cope before sticking (cleans up the tearout)

2. Cope after sticking using a profiled backer (reverse of the door sticking profile) on 1/2 of the copes and a square edge on the other half. It works but you have to keep resetting the profiled backer after a few cuts to keep the tearout down.

Running left and right coping cutters (clockwise and counter clockwise) allows you to cut from the profile toward the square end on both sides of the rail. It keeps any tearout to the outside where it gets trimmed off. 

I prefer to run all the sticking in the longest length possible which elimates option 1. Also cutting the sticking on short parts is a pain. 

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8 hours ago, BillyJack said:

 

Many on here are trying to get from A-Z on a few dollars. I can tell from the pictures you are putting a lot of money in cutters for shapers which would be a waste to 99.9% here. Many buy shapers when they come up cheap, but nobody is going to put a small fortune in cutters for a a few pieces of furniture for themselves....

 

 I do have some $ wrapped up in cutterheads and knives. But surprisingly most of the stock profile 40mm pin knives i have were only about $7 each. Now in all fairness they are usually $14 but router bits would have been more than that.

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