Joinery For Heavy Oak Dresser

[Leaseman]

Hello, I'm planning on making a larger dresser, 70" long, 18" deep, and 35" high. When taking the legs out of the conversation I'm basically making a box, 30" high. I'm using red oak that has been milled down to about 3/4" thick. I'm not confident using my normal dowel joinery for the top, bottom, and sides; thing thing will weigh a ton. Dados and rabbets wouldn't seem strong enough so I'm sort of at a loss on what to do. I've not made anything this big before using red oak. Any ideas?

[gee-dub]

OK, I'll say it before anyone else does . . . Watch Christian Becksvoort.  Dados for dividers and dovetails for tops and bottoms is a tried and true construction method.  If you're not into the dovetails, rabbets, dowels or hidden mechanical fasteners can work.

You can also make your feet into posts and frame them in using mortise and tenons for the joinery.  This dresser is pretty stout and has been moved twice to new homes.  Even with the drawers out two guys and a dolly are preferred to lugging this beast.  No failures.

[RichardA]

78" long x 24" deep  x 42" high, mostly 3/4 red oak 8/4 legs all drawers are box jointed, with 5/8" poplar for the interior drawers. The interior webbing is all red oak.  I didn't use dowels, I went M/T for joinery. And there's no one I know that can pick it up. It takes 2 to lift one end  all the way. One can get it off the carpet, but no for long.The back is rabbetted in with 5/8" Baltic birch

[Leaseman]

16 hours ago, RichardA said:

78" long x 24" deep  x 42" high, mostly 3/4 red oak 8/4 legs all drawers are box jointed, with 5/8" poplar for the interior drawers. The interior webbing is all red oak.  I didn't use dowels, I went M/T for joinery. And there's no one I know that can pick it up. It takes 2 to lift one end  all the way. One can get it off the carpet, but no for long.The back is rabbetted in with 5/8" Baltic birch

This finish looks really good. Changing topics did you use a wood (pore) filler? If so what is it?

 

 

 

[RichardA]

Uh, was there a point in showing me the dresser I made ?

2 hours ago, Leaseman said:

 

 

[Mark J]

@RichardA here is what Leaseman said, his message got imbeded in the quote:

This finish looks really good. Changing topics did you use a wood (pore) filler? If so what is it?

 

[RichardA]

25 minutes ago, Mark J said:

@RichardA here is what Leaseman said, his message got imbeded in the quote:

This finish looks really good. Changing topics did you use a wood (pore) filler? If so what is it?

 

Thank's Mark, I'm guessing that there are things with this new format that still require some nudging.   To respond to his question:   I didn't use a pore filler, instead I used 600 grit for the surfaces prior to finishing, and I wiped the surface clean, rather than using my compressor, allowing the dust to remain in place, then held in place with Danish oil, then several coats of poly.

[Leaseman]

Thanks Mark, obviously I don't know how to use "quote". Thanks for the info Richard and Gee-Dub. I use dowels over M/T. I don't think either one would be strong enough to hold something together of this weight. I might just use, dare I say, screws and plugs. Or screws and epoxy to fill the gap. This can look pretty cool but it takes away from that clean look as seen in Richard's dresser above.

[RichardA]

2 hours ago, Leaseman said:

Thanks Mark, obviously I don't know how to use "quote". Thanks for the info Richard and Gee-Dub. I use dowels over M/T. I don't think either one would be strong enough to hold something together of this weight. I might just use, dare I say, screws and plugs. Or screws and epoxy to fill the gap. This can look pretty cool but it takes away from that clean look as seen in Richard's dresser above.

The only metal in my dresser are the screws holding the back inside the rabbet.  if your info is correct, M/T would do the job, perhaps dowels would work as well. As for the weight, I can assure you that my dresser is considerably heavier that yours will be., And it been in constant use for at least 5 or 6 years, and is still rock solid.

[Chestnut]

2 hours ago, Leaseman said:

I don't think either one would be strong enough to hold something together of this weight.

I don't see how the weight has much of an influence on the performance of joinery? I've made a large dresser as well and used all floating mortise and tenon joinery and it is more than strong enough.

A lot of this depends on construction method and design. If you were planning on making a modern style where there aren't dust frames and the drawers are attached with ball bearing drawer slides. Making the box with a plywood back that is attached with screws like Richard's would be very strong. Dowels where the top and bottom meets the side would offer a lot of strength.

My Roubo style workbench weights 200-300 lbs and is mortise and tenon joinery. I could probably drive a truck over it as well.

[Leaseman]

My concern with M/T or dowels is that this being 3/4" stock the tenons or dowels will only being in 1/2" - 5/8" into the top and bottom panels. Still being a novice I certainly value y'alls opinion over mine, but you can see why I would question this. I'm afraid that when moving the piece at some point in the future someone will go to lift it from the top panel and the thing will pop off or otherwise get compromised. The thing will way a couple of hundred pounds.

[RichardA]

The weight is unimportant, unless you are going to make the whole dresser hang off one joint.  With multiple joints evenly divided throughout the construct, there isn't much weight on any particular joint. The weight of the dresser is cumulative. meaning that the parts of the whole make the whole weigh, whatever it's going to weigh. Joints everywhere will do their job, and when attached to another section that does it job will not be affected by it's cumulative weight.   Here's an example:  There are thousands of parts to a car, it sits on four rubber tires, and the total weight is close to 2 tons. But the total weight is because all the smaller parts work together to hold it together.  Just like the joints in a piece of furniture.  You can't rely on screws, any movement will force the metal to flex and move and your construct is weakened.  Wood joints properly glued,maintain the strength they were designed to maintain and are less likely to flex or shift , due to the glue being stronger that the wood itself.       I'm not trying to tell you what to do.  However if you want a piece you build to enjoy a full life, build it the right way and it'll outlive you.  And that's all you really need, unless you're bent on it serving generations of people behind you.  Which is what most of us here strive for. Excellence and longevity, and beauty.

   Shortcuts will give you Ikea!   

One more point that you need to understand.  A  properly glued Mortise and Tenon joint becomes one piece of solid wood , due to the glue being stronger than the wood itself.  Screws do not hold very well period. There is little to no surface area that they can  grab that is equal to what a proper M/T joint can grab.  The M/T joint fills the whole joint, a screw gets a couple of inches with threads that tear wood when it's shifted.   

Edited September 28, 2020 by RichardA
Addition

[Leaseman]

Thanks Richard, I see your point and feel more comfortable with this. Do you think I'm okay using 1/4" dowels (since its 3/4" boards) or should I use 3/8" dowels. Will the dowels be as good as M /T?

[RichardA]

Dowells will work, but they will not be as strong as M/T, but then anything is better than screws.  Are you avoiding M/T for a reason? The thing is, for dowels to be as close in strength as M/T you really need quite a few of them.  For example a 3" M/T joint is two pieces of wood bonded together with a strong glue. For the same strength, you'll need about 4 or 5 dowels, but you'd need only one M/T joint. If the space you have is limited to2", you'll need4 dowels. I admit that dowels are faster, but if you have them to close together, you're creating a weak spot between each one.  So with 4 dowels you now have 3 weakened spaces.  As well as aligning 4 dowels becomes problimatic. And you want your joints even and tight.  Will you be using a drill press to drill those dowells? Because if you try doing it by hand, you are absolutely going to have problems. I don't know of, or ever heard of anyone that can drill freehand holes that are straight consistantly If you have a domino, that would be better than dowels. But for sure a M/t joint is far above them both.

Not knowing how experienced you are at wood working, doesn't help me help you.  But the truth is, and my dresser is what I'll use to point out this.  All the joints in my dresser are M/t and everyone of them are solid.  Overall, it's your choice, dowels or M/T, either way is going to be a learning experience for you. I'd like to have you give us all pics as you progress, especially if you have questions.  There are a very large group of excellent woodworkers here that along with me will be happy to answer your needs.

 

As for dowel size, 1/2 of the thickness of the board.  3/4" gets 3/8" dowels.  You could safely go to 1/2" if you were not going to try it freehand.

Edited September 29, 2020 by RichardA
I forgot to answer about dowel size.

[Leaseman]

I consider myself a novice woodworker. I don't have a domino so I would be doing M/T by hand and because of this projects size, and cost of wood, I don't want to learn on this project. I was actually thinking of using lag screws with a washer. Not very "woodworker" but I thought it would be strong. I could them recess them down and cover them with dowel plugs. I use a dowel jig when using dowels and, yes lining them up on the flat side of the board can be a challenge. I'm just at the stage of four glued up panels, the top and bottom of the dresser. The two remaining panels will make up the two sides and two "dividers" holding a total of nine drawers. Dimensions will be 70" x 18"(deep) x 36" tall with legs about six inches. I've included a picture of the panels as they lay in my sons room; keeping them out of the desert heat until I get back to work on it.

[RichardA]

Keep us updated.

[Coop]

If length allows, you will loose some with the length of the tenons, I would recommend using mortise and tenons in lieu of dowels. With all due respect, I would not consider the lag bolts. For fine or finer Woodworking, you need to start some where and this could be the start. If you need advise on mortise and tenons, just ask here. We all have opinions. 

[RichardA]

Here's another piece of advise. If you want those panels on the floor to be straight.   Sticker them.    Or they will become useless when you try to put together your dresser.   You appear to be in a rush to build this. It seems that  may be the reason you don't want to attempt M/T. But if you don't do it right now, when will you take the time to do it right.  @Chet.....

[Leaseman]

Richard, what do you mean by "sticker them"?

[legenddc]

Put some skinny pieces of wood to elevate them so air can circulate around the boards. You' re try to avoid one side drying out and warping the boards.

I'd never created a mortise and tenon until earlier this year when I did it on a stool. I did it this way and it really was pretty easy as long as you take your time laying things out. I'm not sure what the easiest way to cut tenons on that long of pieces but I'm sure someone else can chime in.

I used dowels and a doweling jig when I built the Kitchen Helper and it was a lot of work. If I have to build another I think I would do M&T unless a Domino landed on my lap. It's sturdy as is, but it took just as much time as making M&T. 

[RichardA]

2 hours ago, Leaseman said:

Richard, what do you mean by "sticker them"?

That's using stickers.  Off the flat floor by at least 3/4" and  the same spacers between the two boards.   Please don't think I'm picking on you. I'm trying to get you to do something in your woodworking future that is the right way to do it.  If you're happy with your work that may turn out to be Ikea  then do it however you want. But, I'd like to see you advance beyond a businessman building a bench from  big box store wood, that's going to twist and cup and split.  I'd like to see you point at your dresser and say it's done right and it looks good.  I don't want you to go through this and in a year or two you have big gaps, or cupped boards or joints coming apart, and the finish peeling off.   @Legenddc has a point, he to is new at this, not as new as you, but he learned to break from the quick ways to the right ways. I did to.  Long before you were born I might add. but I to learned.  I'm just trying to pass it on.  One day if you find this hobby a life long thing, you'll be saying the same thing to someone walking out of Home Depot or Lowes with an arm full of lumber.  

[legenddc]

Took me a while and I haven't attempted a dresser yet. Two pocket hole construction lumber dining room tables later... I was so tired of staring at the gaps and warped wood that we sold it and brought up one we inherited. I've discovered most people don't notice details. You could literally see through the table to the floor but the guy who bought it seemed happy with it. 

Up next for me is a shaker end table. Assuming that goes well a dresser or two could be in my future.

[Leaseman]

Richard, I appreciate what your doing but nothing I've said would suggest I'm trying to cut corners or that I'm rushing through this. My simple question was would conventional joinery be strong enough in 3/4 red oak stock when the finished piece would be so heavy. I've built a large dresser before but that was 1 1/2" douglas fir using dowels, holds together fine but requires disassembly to move it so the joints are really tested any way (see below). I'm just now graduating to hardwood, hence my ignorance. Again, I really do appreciate the input from all you fine folks. By the way, yes, I was a little embarrassed to mention lag screws (on a woodworking forum, are you nuts!). Just looking for ideas

[legenddc]

That's a cool dresser. I could see something similar to that for an entertainment center.

[pkinneb]

59 minutes ago, Leaseman said:

My simple question was would conventional joinery be strong enough in 3/4 red oak stock when the finished piece would be so heavy. 

The simple answer is yes.