TomInNC Posted April 14, 2021 Report Share Posted April 14, 2021 I would like to build a sideboard that has two trash cans in it with a butcher block top that we can wheel around the patio for extra counter space while grilling. The sideboard will generally be outside but under a roof, so it will not be exposed to rain. I am still pretty new to woodworking, so I was hoping to find plans to work off of. I am trying to use this project to build some skills, so I was thinking of using alternative joinery instead of the pocket screws. I would also like to use solid wood instead of the plywood. Is trying to take on solid wood casework as a novice a bad idea? Lastly, any suggestions on the species I should use? While the sideboard would be under a roof, it will be outside in the NC weather, which means humidity swings will be pretty extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted April 14, 2021 Report Share Posted April 14, 2021 Are you looking for something like this? https://fixthisbuildthat.com/diy-patio-cooler-grill-cart-combo-plans/ I don't see why you couldn't do sold wood and non-pocket screw joinery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted April 14, 2021 Report Share Posted April 14, 2021 Could do something like this and modify it to your needs. https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/xl-big-green-egg-table/ Nothing wrong with solid wood outside. It's likely to hold up better than ply. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 Thanks for the suggestions. I like the plans you linked, but they are a bit different than what I had in mind. I had a link in my original post, but for some reason that was deleted by a mod. Anyway, the plan that I liked is attached as a PDF. Instead of the one pullout trash can, I was going to have 2 trash cans and no shelving. For the frames, I was thinking that I could use exactly what is in the plan but instead of the pocket holes use mortise and tenons. Where I am less sure how to proceed starts around Step 6. I guess basically my question comes down to whether or not it would be safe to replace all of the plywood in the plan (bottoms/dividers/sides) with simple glued up panels (which I have a little experience with), or do I need something like a frame and panel that will accommodate wood movement? DIY Kitchen Island_2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 Glued-up panels are where I find the most need to account for wood movement. Unless all the boards are quarter-sawn, the cumulative expansion or contraction across the width can be significant, varying by species and environmental conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 1 hour ago, wtnhighlander said: Glued-up panels are where I find the most need to account for wood movement. Unless all the boards are quarter-sawn, the cumulative expansion or contraction across the width can be significant, varying by species and environmental conditions. The place where I have been getting lumber doesn't appear to have much quarter-sawn stock at the moment, so there likely would be significant movement. Are you aware of any videos or plans (free or paid) where there is a nice demonstration of how frame and panel approach is used to build something like the island plans I have above? I guess any example of using a solid wood frame and panel inside of a larger frame would do. My google skills might be getting rusty, but all of the examples that I seem to find are using plywood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted April 15, 2021 Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 There are a LOT of ways to accomplish what you are looking for. Frame and panel construction would be an easy way to achieve this. You make the frame similar to how the plans are showing but have a groove around the inside that captures a panel. To account for wood movement the panel would be undersized to allow for 1/8" to 1/4" of expansion space. I typically use a 1/2" deep grove. The width of the grove is usually dependent on how thick the material is. This is an entierly different project buy shows the method well and how it can be used around details. I resaw the material down to make the panel but if you don't have resaw capabilities you can always just rabbet the edge of the panel to fit into the groove. This is similar to how a raised panel is made except the raised portion would go inward instead of outward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2021 26 minutes ago, Chestnut said: There are a LOT of ways to accomplish what you are looking for. Frame and panel construction would be an easy way to achieve this. You make the frame similar to how the plans are showing but have a groove around the inside that captures a panel. To account for wood movement the panel would be undersized to allow for 1/8" to 1/4" of expansion space. I typically use a 1/2" deep grove. The width of the grove is usually dependent on how thick the material is. This is an entierly different project buy shows the method well and how it can be used around details. I resaw the material down to make the panel but if you don't have resaw capabilities you can always just rabbet the edge of the panel to fit into the groove. This is similar to how a raised panel is made except the raised portion would go inward instead of outward. Awesome. This is exactly what I was looking for. I don't have a bandsaw, so any resawing would have to be done on my table saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 23 hours ago, Chestnut said: There are a LOT of ways to accomplish what you are looking for. Frame and panel construction would be an easy way to achieve this. You make the frame similar to how the plans are showing but have a groove around the inside that captures a panel. To account for wood movement the panel would be undersized to allow for 1/8" to 1/4" of expansion space. I typically use a 1/2" deep grove. The width of the grove is usually dependent on how thick the material is. This is an entierly different project buy shows the method well and how it can be used around details. I resaw the material down to make the panel but if you don't have resaw capabilities you can always just rabbet the edge of the panel to fit into the groove. This is similar to how a raised panel is made except the raised portion would go inward instead of outward. On the panel creation, around 8:30 in it sounds like he is resawing/planing the panels down to about 1/4''. Is that right? Ideally I will be able to put this thing on casters and wheel it back and forth to the grill. I am thinking that if I used 4/4 panels, the final weight of the piece would make mobility... challenging. I have a nice table saw that I am pretty comfortable with, so I am thinking that it would make sense to try to resaw using the TS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 I've done some resawing with the table saw and it's possible. Just make sure to be careful obviously. Once you resaw down to your desired thickness you can join panels together to get the width you need. I don't know if the species you were planning on using was discussed. A 4/4 panel will add some weight but i don't think it'll be the difference between easily mobile and not moving. The size of the wheel and surface you are moving it on will have a large impact. If it has decking larger wheels might be better if it's on smooth concrete you could get away with smaller. My 750 lb jointer rolls around my shop extremely easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Chestnut said: I've done some resawing with the table saw and it's possible. Just make sure to be careful obviously. Once you resaw down to your desired thickness you can join panels together to get the width you need. I don't know if the species you were planning on using was discussed. A 4/4 panel will add some weight but i don't think it'll be the difference between easily mobile and not moving. The size of the wheel and surface you are moving it on will have a large impact. If it has decking larger wheels might be better if it's on smooth concrete you could get away with smaller. My 750 lb jointer rolls around my shop extremely easily. Sorry. I should have added a little more info. My patio is made of brick-like pavers, so wheeling this back and forth from under the house is going to be a bumpy ride. Do they make off-road casters? Haha. For the specieis, I haven't decided yet, but the Sapele looks cool and I know that my local lumberyard carries it on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Interestingly they do. My local hardware store has some like this. https://www.amazon.com/Swivel-Caster-Anti-Skid-Casters-Without/dp/B07H4KFGZD/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=tire+casters&qid=1618588192&sr=8-4 but then also pneumatic tire casters that are 8". They do get on the more expensive side but a 6" caster could be a good idea for outside on rough ground even if the piece becomes lighter weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, Chestnut said: Interestingly they do. My local hardware store has some like this. https://www.amazon.com/Swivel-Caster-Anti-Skid-Casters-Without/dp/B07H4KFGZD/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=tire+casters&qid=1618588192&sr=8-4 but then also pneumatic tire casters that are 8". They do get on the more expensive side but a 6" caster could be a good idea for outside on rough ground even if the piece becomes lighter weight. That's awesome. And if the project doesn't work out, my kids will be able to ride it down the hill in the backyard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G Ragatz Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 If you're concerned about weight and limited resaw capability, maybe you could use vertical slats on the sides and back instead of solid panels. If you have some 8/4 stock, you could make 1/4" x 1-3/4" (or so) slats on your table saw. You could mortise them into the top and bottom rails (if you're ambitious) or set them into a groove in the rails, with a little glue and a couple of pin nails. Choose the spacing between to make it even across the side. I don't think you'd have to worry about wood movement with slats that size, and it might be kind of an attractive look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legenddc Posted April 16, 2021 Report Share Posted April 16, 2021 Might keep smells down too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 If you do decide to resaw on your TS, I think it is worthwhile to build a "tall fence" from plywood, so the stock is fully supported through the cut, even though the blade won't reach much above the stock fence. A stacked featherboard with greatly reduce the pucker factor, too. And one thing I find most important, leave a small strip in the middle to finish with a hand saw. Even a half-inch strip is usually enough to hold the sides rigidly apart, so they don't fold into the blade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coop Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 I just finished re-sawing an 8” wide board and started it on the Ts and finished it on the bandsaw. @wtnhighlanderis right, a tall fence that rides over your fence is advised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 11 hours ago, wtnhighlander said: If you do decide to resaw on your TS, I think it is worthwhile to build a "tall fence" from plywood, so the stock is fully supported through the cut, even though the blade won't reach much above the stock fence. A stacked featherboard with greatly reduce the pucker factor, too. And one thing I find most important, leave a small strip in the middle to finish with a hand saw. Even a half-inch strip is usually enough to hold the sides rigidly apart, so they don't fold into the blade. Thanks for the tips! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 Has anyone tried the Magswitch resaw guide for resawing on a TS? It is marketed as being for a bandsaw, but I don't see why this wouldn't work on the table saw as well as a kind of giant stacked featherboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom King Posted April 17, 2021 Report Share Posted April 17, 2021 I would think it would work pretty good. I have other Magswitch things, like regular featherboards, that I like, and use all the time. I also have a number of pieces to help with welding, made by Magswitch. I like their stuff a lot. For instance, I needed to add some reinforcement/buildup pieces on the bottom of a loader bucket. Normally, I'd have to have someone hold them in place while I tackwelded them. With the Magswitch magnets, I can do it by myself. Hold the metal where I want to weld it, and put a Magswitch magnet over it, twist the knob, and it stays in place better than it could be held by hand. Also, some things that hold two pieces in place, at any angle you want. I'd bet the resaw guide would work fine, and may get one myself. I just haven't seen them yet. I do have some shopmade tall fence boards that I've used for various things, like roughing out raised panels, on big panels. For things like that, there probably is no better choice than building something special. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2022 Almost done with my workbench, and I am going to try to finally make this grill cart using these plans but modified to use solid wood and traditional joinery. The lumber yard has 8/4 utile at a good price, so I think I will use that for the build. I'm trying to finalize the plan of attack for the joinery so that I can get a good estimate for the amount of material. After the discussion above, I convinced myself that the easiest thing to do for the trash can portion of the box is to make separate frame-and-panels and then screw them in. This is simple enough for the left side, back, and base, but I'm not sure how to proceed with the panel that would mount onto the divider. I just built a workbench, and I still have the mortise jig for the leg joinery. My initial thought was to have the rails all oriented as they were on my bench (see also, the top rail in the attached picture) and mate them with mortise and tenons. When I was looking at the plans last night, however, I realized that the bottom rail is oriented with the "thickness" facing outwards and the width facing upwards (see bottom rail in attached picture). The divider in the plan is then the width of the bottom rail (3.5") that gets screwed into the thickness of a 2x4 at the top. Does having the thickness (as in the picture) instead of the width (e.g., in TWW big green egg table) of the bottom rail facing outwards weaken the structure of the unit? I expect the cart to take a bit of a beating, so strength is important. Also, if I did orient the bottom rail as in my workbench, what would be the best way to mount the frame and panel for the center divider? I was thinking of sizing square posts to the thickness of the rail (prob 1.75''), attaching a ledger strip to the dividers, then screwing the frame and panel into the ledger strip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted April 11, 2022 Report Share Posted April 11, 2022 Turning the bottom rail as shown will reduce the area of surface area contact between the rail and leg in the direction needed to resist "racking" (diagonal) forces. How much that affects the project is hard to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted April 13, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2022 On 4/11/2022 at 4:45 PM, wtnhighlander said: Turning the bottom rail as shown will reduce the area of surface area contact between the rail and leg in the direction needed to resist "racking" (diagonal) forces. How much that affects the project is hard to say. Thanks. I am just going to rotate the rail so that they are all oriented as in the top of the picture. Don't want to chance it on the strength. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomInNC Posted November 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2022 Finally getting back to this project... I am going to be using hardwire like the RevAShelf pullout to hold some trash cans on the left side of the grill cart which is sketched out a few posts above. I am making the frame for the cart using traditional mortise and tenon joinery. In order for the door to close without a noticeable gap, the legs on the cart (green in the sketch above) will need to be perfectly flush with the vertical divider (beige) and the apron/stretcher (purple). In my (limited) previous attempts at MT joinery, the piece with the tenon was designed to be offset from the mortised piece, so there was no reason to be concerned about making anything flush. Are there any tricks for ensuring that the joined pieces will be flush? My thinking right now is to try to align the mortises so that the divider and apron/stretcher are slightly proud of the leg and then hand plane things until they are flush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted November 10, 2022 Report Share Posted November 10, 2022 I have found that leaving some wiggle room and cutting it flush after assembly is always easier than getting a perfectly flush assembly in the first place. A lot of that is related to my meh-quality machines that aren't as perfectly flat / level / square as they should be. Folks with a higher grade of equipment (and understand how to use it) SEEM to have a slightly easier time of it. Or maybe they just put in the extra effort to make sure the machines are perfect in the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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