What Should I Get for the Shop?

[TomInNC]

32 minutes ago, gee-dub said:

Me too. Folks who are unsure if they need a jointer are either doing things that don’t require well milled stock or are comfortable wondering why their parts don’t align well . 

At least in my case I was milling things by hand (and the projects didn't require a ton of accuracy.

Based on what I have read, I am pretty sure I want to get an 8 inch Powermatic jointer. Since I haven't ever used a power jointer before, I am not sure what "flavor" will work best for me. Prices run from $1999 for the dovetail, straight-blade version to $3225 for helical/parallelogram version. Is the extra cost associated with the parallelogram design and helical cutter worth it?

[curlyoak]

I have and like my 8" jointer. I could make use of a 12". I do not know what a 12" costs but if the 8" with helical was the same price as a 12" straight knives, I'd go with the 12".

 

[wtnhighlander]

2 hours ago, TomInNC said:

 Is the extra cost associated with the parallelogram design and helical cutter worth it?

Not having either, take this for what it is worth:

YES.

Generally, it is cheaper to get the helical cutter up front, than to retrofit later. The savings in sharpening / knife replacement will make up the difference soon enough.

No comment on parallelogram vs. dovetail.

[jussi]

You may also check out the used market.  With the savings you could add a helical head and pay less than a new straight knife.  I just finished putting on a Byrd head to a used Delta DJ-20 8" jointer I got a while back.  The head cost 3x as much as what I paid for the Jointer itself.  And this jointer is replacing a 6" PM jointer I also got used and had put in a byrd head.

If you have your mind set on getting new I would give Grizzly a consideration.  Cremona has a 12(?) inch Grizzly and I believe he has commented on woodtalk about how much he likes it. 

 

 

[TomInNC]

3 hours ago, jussi said:

You may also check out the used market.  With the savings you could add a helical head and pay less than a new straight knife.  I just finished putting on a Byrd head to a used Delta DJ-20 8" jointer I got a while back.  The head cost 3x as much as what I paid for the Jointer itself.  And this jointer is replacing a 6" PM jointer I also got used and had put in a byrd head.

If you have your mind set on getting new I would give Grizzly a consideration.  Cremona has a 12(?) inch Grizzly and I believe he has commented on woodtalk about how much he likes it. 

 

 

Unfortunately I've been checking Craigslist and other sites locally for about 6 months, and the only jointers I have seen for sale are the very old models that would require a lot of work to get them operational again. 

[Chestnut]

19 hours ago, TomInNC said:

Is the extra cost associated with the parallelogram design and helical cutter worth i

Yes for the helical cutter, maybe ... but probably not for the parallelogram. I got the parallelogram model because my shop is in the basement and I was really worried about the jointer being knocked out of alignment when moving it into my shop. If my shop was a garage where i could gently set it in place and never move it the dovetail is more than good enough.

 

[Mark J]

I've never understood what is dovetail or parallelogram about a jointer.  Anyone know of a website that might explain?

[gee-dub]

7 minutes ago, Mark J said:

I've never understood what is dovetail or parallelogram about a jointer.  Anyone know of a website that might explain?

The table 'ways'.  Dovetail tables slide on a dovetail shaped platform.  The platform is angled so that the table can be raise and lowered by sliding forward and backward on the dovetail.  This also brings the table closer and farther from the cuter head.

Parallelogram tables are raised and lowered via a mechanism often of four contact points per table.  On my Delta DJ-20 clone the four points move in pairs.  The table gap at the head is pretty consistent due to the arc of travel that the parallelogram mechanism follows.

It is arguably easier to align p-beds if and when that becomes necessary.  The 'gap at the cutterhead' importance is also arguable.  I owned a couple of DT-way jointers; one poor quality and one just old and worn.  The alignment process was such that I put p-beds at the top of my 'gotta-haves' list when I went replacement jointer shopping.  I also researched the cost benefit of carbide inserts over time and put that as my fourth item on the list.  Long tables and a tall fence were number 2 and 3

[Mark J]

@TomInNC, did you look at the Hammer jointer & planer combo units? 

[Mark J]

Just now, gee-dub said:

The table 'ways'.  Dovetail tables slide on a dovetail shaped platform.  The platform is angled so that the table can be raise and lowered by sliding forward and backward on the dovetail.  This also brings the table closer and farther from the cuter head

So it's on the adjustable side of the jointer bed.

I have heard people complain that the dovetail units are difficult to adjust/level.

[gee-dub]

6 minutes ago, Mark J said:

So it's on the adjustable side of the jointer bed.

I have heard people complain that the dovetail units are difficult to adjust/level.

Both table are adjustable on most jointers.  Otherwise you would need to level the cutterhead to the outfeed.  There may be jointers that do this but, I have not bumped into them.

Anyone who would rather shim dovetail ways to align jointer tables rather than turn an eccentric cam has a different idea of fun than I do  .

[TomInNC]

If the jointer is going to be stationary, how much leveling should I expect to be doing? I talked to some local woodworking suppliers, and they have the dovetail jointer but do not have the parallelogram and aren't sure when that will be back in stock. 

[TomInNC]

So I think I finally tracked down a jointer, so I have been trying to figure out the dust collection issue. After a week of reading up on dust collection, I am now more confused than when I started. The primary tools that would be connected to the DC are the 8 inch jointer, the dewalt 735 lunchbox planer, and the 3hp sawstop PCS. I have a ROS, router and miter saw as well, but I was assuming I would be better off using the shopvac to clean up for those tools. 

Is a 2-stage or cyclone system something that I would actually benefit from? Or should I be fine with one of the bag units? I saw the supercell reference above, but given the price and its specs, it sounds like that is a much more expensive version of a shopvac.  Right now I am just using a shopvac for everything, and there is definitely a layer of fine dust all over the garage. My primary goal of the dust system would be eliminating that dust. The shop area is one stall of a 3 car garage (about 10x22). 

[TomInNC]

Also, after contacting Oneida, they said that the mini Gorilla would be an option for me to consider. The Woodcraft site says that the PM jointer requires a minimum of 800 CFM, but the spec sheet that the oneida guy sent over listed the mini gorilla at just under 600 CFM. I know he's trying to sell me on their products. Does this mean the mini gorilla would be underpowered?

[Chestnut]

1 hour ago, TomInNC said:

Also, after contacting Oneida, they said that the mini Gorilla would be an option for me to consider. The Woodcraft site says that the PM jointer requires a minimum of 800 CFM, but the spec sheet that the oneida guy sent over listed the mini gorilla at just under 600 CFM. I know he's trying to sell me on their products. Does this mean the mini gorilla would be underpowered?

Which jointer? 800 minimum CFM is a lot. My PM tools only ask for 400. I have the 15HH and PJ882.

Thinking about how a jointer is made it cuts chips and drops them on a chute that leads down towards a hose inlet. You can get good collection from one with low CFM and honestly i use mine often to joint a board quick with out running the collector *GASP!*

If you aren't ducting and dragging the collector tool to tool, which works great, 600 cfm is a good amount. Oneida is more honest in their numbers and you'll likely actually get 600 cfm. Unlike Horrible Fright that rates their collector for 1200 cfm and you'd be lucky to get 600.

[TomInNC]

This (https://www.woodcraft.com/products/powermatic-8-parallelogram-jointer-with-helical-cutterhead-model-pj-882hh?gclid=Cj0KCQjwna2FBhDPARIsACAEc_VPSMja0jPOrVhv8ecq_z0eJVsR3xx5gFMIqTu4emHRNSdJSKIcwN4aAqhfEALw_wcB) is the jointer. The Woodcraft site says a minimum of 800 cfm. If you go to PM's site (http://www.powermatic.com/us/en/p/pj-882hh-jointer-2hp-1ph-230v/1610082) it says the minimum CFM is 450. 

 

The spec sheet I got from Oneida said the mini Gorilla is rated at 583cfm, and the SuperCell is rated 465CFM. If the SuperCell would work AND be good for hooking up small port tools as advertised, that would be a nice solution. If it isn't able to handle the jointer, however, I just bought a very expensive shop vac. 

 

 

[wtnhighlander]

A simple bag collector is unlikely to eliminate the fine dust. Replacing the filterbag with a cannister filter should be a big improvement. The cyclone / two-stage design mostly separates the larger chips ahead of the filter so they don't clog it prematurely.

While filtering adequately (or exhausting externally, if that is a option) are important goals, always remember that the dust must be collected as close to the source as possible for greatest efficience. Jointers and planers aren't difficult, but a tablesaw can be. Yo may need to look at collection below AND above the table.

[Mick S]

Dust collection is such a (con job) numbers game. I'm not encouraging you to ignore them, but to proceed with caution.

Drew is correct in saying that Oneida is more honest than many with their numbers. There are so many variables that folks like us often just have to throw a dart and hope for the best.

I can only relate my experience. I have a Jet 2 HP cyclone. It worked fine - though probably (most definitely) not to OSHA standards - when I had it hooked up to my SawStop PCS 3HP, 6" jointer, DeWalt 735, and 20" Inca bandsaw. Add in the 19" Supermax drum sander and it was marginal with the fine dust, but I could live with it since I'm good about using my overhead filter. Now I've added larger tools and I need to upgrade. With everything else closed, it pulls okay from my 16" J/P. Very little if any buildup. Okay from my 6 x 89 edge sander. I just need to remember to let it run for a few minutes after turning off those tools.

You will add to your shop. First rule of woodworking. You will. Unless you want to do what I'm doing, e.g. replacing it with a larger unit, buy once, cry once. 

Edit: Just saw that you bought a Supercell while I was typing.

Buddy of mine has a 12" J/P and a Supercell. It pulls fine from it. 

[TomInNC]

8 minutes ago, Mick S said:

Dust collection is such a (con job) numbers game. I'm not encouraging you to ignore them, but to proceed with caution.

Drew is correct in saying that Oneida is more honest than many with their numbers. There are so many variables that folks like us often just have to throw a dart and hope for the best.

I can only relate my experience. I have a Jet 2 HP cyclone. It worked fine - though probably (most definitely) not to OSHA standards - when I had it hooked up to my SawStop PCS 3HP, 6" jointer, DeWalt 735, and 20" Inca bandsaw. Add in the 19" Supermax drum sander and it was marginal with the fine dust, but I could live with it since I'm good about using my overhead filter. Now I've added larger tools and I need to upgrade. With everything else closed, it pulls okay from my 16" J/P. Very little if any buildup. Okay from my 6 x 89 edge sander. I just need to remember to let it run for a few minutes after turning off those tools.

You will add to your shop. First rule of woodworking. You will. Unless you want to do what I'm doing, e.g. replacing it with a larger unit, buy once, cry once. 

Edit: Just saw that you bought a Supercell while I was typing.

Buddy of mine has a 12" J/P and a Supercell. It pulls fine from it. 

Sorry for any confusion. I didn't buy a Supercell yet. I was just talking with the folks at Oneida about options. The guy that I am buying the jointer from suggested the Jet 2HP cyclone that you have. Given your experience with that machine, would you go with the Jet or the Supercell? It looks like the Jet is 1700 and the Supercell is 2400.

[Chestnut]

17 minutes ago, TomInNC said:

This (https://www.woodcraft.com/products/powermatic-8-parallelogram-jointer-with-helical-cutterhead-model-pj-882hh?gclid=Cj0KCQjwna2FBhDPARIsACAEc_VPSMja0jPOrVhv8ecq_z0eJVsR3xx5gFMIqTu4emHRNSdJSKIcwN4aAqhfEALw_wcB) is the jointer. The Woodcraft site says a minimum of 800 cfm. If you go to PM's site (http://www.powermatic.com/us/en/p/pj-882hh-jointer-2hp-1ph-230v/1610082) it says the minimum CFM is 450. 

 

The spec sheet I got from Oneida said the mini Gorilla is rated at 583cfm, and the SuperCell is rated 465CFM. If the SuperCell would work AND be good for hooking up small port tools as advertised, that would be a nice solution. If it isn't able to handle the jointer, however, I just bought a very expensive shop vac.

You can easily run the PJ882-HH with the dust gorilla or super cell. The nice part about a jointer is that it doesn't create a lot of dust and it doesn't have an open nature to throw chips. So you can get away with lower DC.

If you are considering the supercell i'd honestly consider a CV-1800 or the 3HP onida. Run ducts be done with it. I thnk the supercell is a great tool but it's price puts too many other options equal with it at that point. I'd see the supercell being better at CNCs possibly where you may need the higher air velocity?

If you have the headspace and the electrical  avilable it's hard to argue with this though https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/cyclone-bundles/66-cv1800-lh-1p-cyclone-bundle-with-filters.html

[Mick S]

10 minutes ago, TomInNC said:

Sorry for any confusion. I didn't buy a Supercell yet. I was just talking with the folks at Oneida about options. The guy that I am buying the jointer from suggested the Jet 2HP cyclone that you have. Given your experience with that machine, would you go with the Jet or the Supercell? It looks like the Jet is 1700 and the Supercell is 2400.

^^^^^^ What Drew said!! "honestly consider a CV-1800 or the 3HP onida"

If you ever plan to run pipe, the Jet or the mini Gorilla. If not, Supercell.   Edit: Ignore this

Note - I've heard very little but good things about the Supercell. I have only one direct experience with a Supercell installation. 4" PVC pipe with blast gates at each machine. SS PCS 3HP, 12" J/P combo, 14" bandsaw. It worked great for about a month and then threw metal parts shooting around inside the motor housing. Oneida promptly shipped 3 new motors and it seems to be working fine now. One motor blew up.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[wtnhighlander]

If budget is less of a concern than effectiveness, Harvey has a nice unit, too. Just different.

[TomInNC]

22 minutes ago, Chestnut said:

You can easily run the PJ882-HH with the dust gorilla or super cell. The nice part about a jointer is that it doesn't create a lot of dust and it doesn't have an open nature to throw chips. So you can get away with lower DC.

If you are considering the supercell i'd honestly consider a CV-1800 or the 3HP onida. Run ducts be done with it. I thnk the supercell is a great tool but it's price puts too many other options equal with it at that point. I'd see the supercell being better at CNCs possibly where you may need the higher air velocity?

If you have the headspace and the electrical  avilable it's hard to argue with this though https://www.clearvuecyclones.com/cyclone-bundles/66-cv1800-lh-1p-cyclone-bundle-with-filters.html

Head space is not a concern at all in this case. The guy that built this house was obsessed with ridiculously high ceilings. The part of the garage where the DC will be installed has at least 15 feet of headroom.

So when I clocked on the CV link that you posted, I saw an option for a version of the unit that vented outdoors. I need to double check some things, but I believe running a vent out from the garage would be very straightforward; we have an LED transformer that pops out of the wall in a similar spot. I didn't even think about venting outdoors until now. Would this provide any advantages?

[Coop]

Ross, have you any experience with the Harvey? Reason for asking, I just watched their short animated video and it looks like there is no primary collection canister and everything goes thru the impeller?

I’m afraid I will be spending some bucks based on the outcome of this thread. I currently have the HF unit converted to include a cyclone collection drum and the Wynn filter and is currently mobile mounted and takes up mega acreage in my shop. I would like to wall mount this and run duct but am afraid that after doing so, it will not be as efficient as it is now. 

[TomInNC]

27 minutes ago, Mick S said:

^^^^^^ What Drew said!! "honestly consider a CV-1800 or the 3HP onida"

If you ever plan to run pipe, the Jet or the mini Gorilla. If not, Supercell.   Edit: Ignore this

Note - I've heard very little but good things about the Supercell. I have only one direct experience with a Supercell installation. 4" PVC pipe with blast gates at each machine. SS PCS 3HP, 12" J/P combo, 14" bandsaw. It worked great for about a month and then threw metal parts shooting around inside the motor housing. Oneida promptly shipped 3 new motors and it seems to be working fine now. One motor blew up.

Your mileage may vary.

 

Wow. I assume you don't work for Oneida. Haha.