New Shop (The New Mossback Workshop)


BonPacific
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On 12/19/2021 at 3:13 AM, BonPacific said:

What size mini-split did/do you have in your shop?

I honestly do not remember.  I no longer live in WA, so cannot check.  Beside that it was a triple head unit to condition the shop, the LU above the shop, and an out building.  Incredibly energy efficient

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I have two 18k units in my 30x40x10 shop. If you know an HVAC guy give him your dimensions, average outside temps, insulation info, and your floor plan (if you have any walls or dividers) and he can probably give you a good ballpark on unit sizing. Too big can cause problems just as too small can.

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The most notable thing about the shop over the last couple days is that it is flipping cold! I know, surprise surprise in the middle of December. This means I've been keeping my sessions pretty short out there, especially on days I work and can't start until after sundown. This makes my first priority getting the place buttoned up enough that I can work on the electrical without freezing.

Power
I spent several sessions tracing and identifying the existing circuits in the shop. I was initially a little worried that some wires were undersized since they're almost all unmarked white romex. But they did turn out to be 12ga at the smallest, so that was nice to see.

I still need more outlets, and I've settled on adding a bit more wall framing and situating the new boxes halfway between each post, and fill in the one post that doesn't currently have an outlet. That'll give me at about one box every 6 feet. I'm also thinking I'll have a drop for a tool island around the tablesaw. Finally I plan to add a couple retractable cord reels to provide power anywhere not near a wall. Even in my narrow old shop wtih low ceilings a reteactable power tap was constantly useful.

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It was a nice surprise to find an existing 120v 30amp outlet run to the back of the lumber shed. This is where I was already thinking of putting the DC. I'll pick up an adapter for the HF and leave the wiring alone for the moment, and down the line if/when I pick up a ClearVue or something similar I think I should be able to use the existing 10ga for 240v/30a. Feel free to correct me if my understanding is faulty.

There was also another 30amp circuit terminated to a covered outside box on the far side of the shop. Seems to have been intended for something down the line, but was never realized. I'm going to disconnect that old run entirely, but leave the wiring in the walls incase I need or want it later on.

Weatherizing
I spent some time inspecting the structure and found quite a few openings. Some just need a little gap filler, while others will need something sturdier. There's also a little rot at the bottom of the woodshed siding which I may need to replace.

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Not sure if this hole used to be home to birds or bats, but either way they're being evicted.

Along similar lines, the garage doors have no weatherstripping on the sides or top, and the  bottom vinyl is split and isn't doing much anymore. Unfortunately, only after buying some standard bottom stripping from HD did I discover these are Wayne Dalton doors, and Wayne Dalton doors use a bead-style track for the bottom seal, rather than the seemingly more popular t-track. Neither Home Depot nor Lowes around me carries the bead-style, so I'm waiting for two replacement rolls to come in after christmas.

Lighting
Within the first 3 days one of the old fluerescents went out. Not worth replacing the tubes, even though they left some spares behind. I was considering leaving the old fixtures as a backup of some kind, but I'm just going to pull them all out instead.

I got a 10-pack of Barrina LED shop lights, since the Hyperikons I'd specced out seem to have gone out of production just in the last few weeks. One pack of 10 gives me 50k lumens, which will be just shy of 75l/square foot, which was recommended by one of the woodworking magazines (can't remember which one) for general illumination. I'll be adding more general and task lighting, but this is where I'll start incase I don't like the look of these lights. I'll start by running lights along the overhead trusses on either side of the shop fans. I want this light run to avoid being blocked by the garage doors when those are up. Then I'll see about hanging some perpendicular in the gaps to fill things out and reduce shadows.

Heating
I'm working on getting consults/quotes from some local HVAC companies, but this close to christmas makes scheduling a pain. I'm thinking of picking up one of those 5000W electric garage heaters just to take the edge off while I'm trying to work inside, especially with sub-20 temperatures forecast. I know the eastcoasters are laughing :)

Unfortunately, my ladder and truck are both at our old house. My wife's truck is here, but is having an issue starting, so I'm somewhat limited in materials and tool acquisition until I take a full day to load up the old house/truck. In particular, I'm buying a rolling scaffold to help me do all the up-high work. It might be repurposed as a lumber cart down the line as well.

Layout

And when I'm not out in the shop, I've been playing around with layout ideas. For the moment I'm planning to focus all my tools into the main two bay section, and focus the under-loft on storage and any non-woodworking tools. The back corner could eventually be turned into a spray booth.

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Cutouts with stars are tools I do not currently own (e.g. jointer) or that I'm planning for a much larger version than I currently have (like the bench). The tablesaw card is backwards, it'll face away from the assembly table.

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Ok so on your layout I'm going to through out some thoughts and take them or leave them. Some may be general questions to get you thinking.

does the table saw NEED to be in the center? How do you get a duct to it? Power? Do you run full sheets of ply over it? would it be better to put the wing against a wall or column so the power and duct has a place to run? Cross cuts take up a lot of space to the left of the blade it's better to have a lot of space in that direction (maybe i just work that way with the right side of my saw being against the wall?)

Where is your DC going to go and how will the ducting run? The DC location and ducting will have a LARGE impact on tool location. DC ducting should have 1 main line and minimal short branches, an ideal system would have all the tools in a line with wyes that drop down to each tool. Having to run a duct system around the perimeter of a room to collect from tools is inefficient from a DC stand point. It requires a lot of bends and a long length of pipe. Thus making the ducting far MORE expensive as well as inefficient.

Large dust producing tools should be the closest to the DC with the tools that collect less dust or less efficiently at the end. if everything was in a line ideally it'd go DC, planer, Jointer, Drum sander, the rest.

Consider standing lumber on end, a horizontal rack sucks. Like it REALLY sucks. you have tall cielings so you have zero limits for length of borads stood on end. Vertical storage is WAY easier to pick through for grain matching etc. Put your lumber storage area near a door and account for 2x more space than you need to allow boards to be shuffled around. So for example in a 24" x24" by 12' space you can store 576 BF of lumber. Flip that side ways and consider how much wall and floor space you'd loose. Also horizontal racking is EXPENSIVE.

Spreading out seems nice but it might work better to group tools and keep them close if possible. If you have to walk across the shop to go between commonly used tools it may not seem like a big deal but it can slow you down and make you more tired. Long term effects that may result in less production and not wanting to be in your shop as much.

Best advice is to get a tentative lay out don't run ducts if possible, get in the space and start using it. after your first project your layout will change drastically. 2 years down the road you may want things entirely differently than originally planned.

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Seems like progess to me! I agree with @Chestnut about vertical storage. His DC ducting comments seem spot-on, too.

One observation: Lighting and electrical outlets are exactly like clamps. It is pretty dang hard to have too many / much. Lighting gets more critical with age, too. Brightness contracts the irises, which reduces the needs for close focus, something that older lenses have difficulty with, hence readers. 

Regarding that 30A circuit, the awg#10 copper wire is listed by the NEC as good for 30A minimum, the voltage does not change that. Voltage ratings for wire are related to the insulation. Romex brand NM-B cable is listed at 600 volts, 90*C insulation. Technically, that insulation should allow up to 40 amps, but NEC calls for overcurrent protection not to exceed 30, so that's pretty much your limit.

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First I should say that when we toss out ideas and responses to the ideas that you have we are not criticizing anything.  Your decisions will be driven by the things you know about how you work and use your shop.  Again, congrats on a great space and the fun challenge of making it your own.  I made many adjustments or took heart that my choices were okay by hearing from the folks on here when I was making my decisions :).

@Chestnut makes some good points and I will join in.  In my previous shop I put the right side of the tablesaw very near the wall.  This was as far as the fence was ever going to reach anyway and it created a no-man's-land where I could route power and dust collection.  My current shop uses a ceiling drop for tablesaw and router table (conjoined twins in my shop) power and DC but the risers are in the same general location at the extreme right of the saw.

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You can see that my saw is only about 70" from the back wall.  I know from experience that I work with 4x8 sheets almost never and this dimension will work well for me but not for someone else.  This is a good example of tuning your shop for how you work.

My DC layout drove my tool layout substantially.  I ended up very differently than I started out once I tried to plumb DC to an existing layout idea.  Position your DC or DC entrance location if the DC is outside the shop proper.  Now layout your best paths minimizing turns as much as possible.  Can you adjust your tool layout to come to a compromise between ideal machine placement and a significant duct routing or gate position idea?

I went with 10' ceilings and can store shorter lumber on end.  This was my preferred method at the old shop.

595568895_VerticalLumberStorageadd-on(1).jpg.21a062ac163b56f14615a84605c97cd6.jpg

This lets you go through material like books on a shelf instead of un-stacking things all the time.  In the new shop shorter stuff will stand and longer material will go in racks.

Chestnut is also right on target about workflow and machine positions.  A few extra steps doesn't seem like a big deal when drawing a floor plan on paper.  Somewhere around the 457th time you have to walk around something to get to the tool you always use "next" you will start to think about rearranging :D.  In my shop the bandsaw, jointer, and planer are a team and are placed in a cluster.  Maybe not so much for you but you get the idea.

Forge ahead and thanks for dragging us along.  I always enjoy and benefit from seeing how others do things and the decisions they make.  Most of the ideas in my shop came from years of looking at other people's :)

 

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On 12/23/2021 at 2:54 AM, JohnG said:

I’m guessing you might end up wanting more light. I have the same number of fixtures in 400sf at 7’ height.

Watts/square foot is misleading- your ceiling height matters, a lot. How high will these be mounted in your shop?

On 12/23/2021 at 6:07 AM, wtnhighlander said:

Seems like progess to me! I agree with @Chestnut about vertical storage. His DC ducting comments seem spot-on, too.

One observation: Lighting and electrical outlets are exactly like clamps. It is pretty dang hard to have too many / much. Lighting gets more critical with age, too. Brightness contracts the irises, which reduces the needs for close focus, something that older lenses have difficulty with, hence readers. 

Regarding that 30A circuit, the awg#10 copper wire is listed by the NEC as good for 30A minimum, the voltage does not change that. Voltage ratings for wire are related to the insulation. Romex brand NM-B cable is listed at 600 volts, 90*C insulation. Technically, that insulation should allow up to 40 amps, but NEC calls for overcurrent protection not to exceed 30, so that's pretty much your limit.

Agreed that more lighting is better. The 10-pack is just a starting point since I'm not sure whether I'll like these fixtures or not. The lighting circuits are wired with outlets, and these fixtures are intended to daisy-chain up to 6 units, so I don't think I'll be wasting any effort doing the installation in stages. I've got 12' ceilings, so definitely needs more than the minimum.

On 12/23/2021 at 6:07 AM, Chestnut said:

Ok so on your layout I'm going to through out some thoughts and take them or leave them. Some may be general questions to get you thinking.

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 AM, gee-dub said:

First I should say that when we toss out ideas and responses to the ideas that you have we are not criticizing anything.  Your decisions will be driven by the things you know about how you work and use your shop.  Again, congrats on a great space and the fun challenge of making it your own.  I made many adjustments or took heart that my choices were okay by hearing from the folks on here when I was making my decisions :).

Absolutely :). I wouldn't be posting in this thread if I weren't looking for criticism and advice. One of the issues I have here is that my woodworking has been pretty seriously constrained by my previous shop, and before that when I had larger shops in and after college I had too few tools to even worry about placement. I abandoned doing anything larger than a coffee table pretty quick, and while my wife is dropping strong hints about a Wood Whisperer-style gaming table, I legitimately don't know if I want to tackle something of that scale even with the space now to do so.

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 AM, gee-dub said:

@Chestnut makes some good points and I will join in.  In my previous shop I put the right side of the tablesaw very near the wall.  This was as far as the fence was ever going to reach anyway and it created a no-man's-land where I could route power and dust collection.  My current shop uses a ceiling drop for tablesaw and router table (conjoined twins in my shop) power and DC but the risers are in the same general location at the extreme right of the saw.

On 12/23/2021 at 6:07 AM, Chestnut said:

does the table saw NEED to be in the center? How do you get a duct to it? Power? Do you run full sheets of ply over it? would it be better to put the wing against a wall or column so the power and duct has a place to run? Cross cuts take up a lot of space to the left of the blade it's better to have a lot of space in that direction (maybe i just work that way with the right side of my saw being against the wall?)

Doesn't need to be in the center, though my initial kneejerk was to move it out from the wall as that's where it sat in my previous shop. Most of my issues with that positioning probably stemmed from having shelving and a furnace to the left side of the tool and the DC rack behind me when working at it. I originally didn't want to put it up against the left wall (from the drawing orientation) because of other theorized tools, but those have since moved around. The sketch intention was for the drop to be to the right of the blade/table, the card is just upside down.

Just spitballing here: If I move my main bench to the middle section (and rotate the assembly table and lumber storage south) I can still install a window for the bench, and then that gives the TS plenty of breathing room fore and aft if placed against the  wall. The saw has an integrated mobile base so I could pull it out a couple feet if really necessary.

On 12/23/2021 at 6:07 AM, Chestnut said:

Where is your DC going to go and how will the ducting run? The DC location and ducting will have a LARGE impact on tool location. DC ducting should have 1 main line and minimal short branches, an ideal system would have all the tools in a line with wyes that drop down to each tool. Having to run a duct system around the perimeter of a room to collect from tools is inefficient from a DC stand point. It requires a lot of bends and a long length of pipe. Thus making the ducting far MORE expensive as well as inefficient.

Large dust producing tools should be the closest to the DC with the tools that collect less dust or less efficiently at the end. if everything was in a line ideally it'd go DC, planer, Jointer, Drum sander, the rest.

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 AM, gee-dub said:

My DC layout drove my tool layout substantially.  I ended up very differently than I started out once I tried to plumb DC to an existing layout idea.  Position your DC or DC entrance location if the DC is outside the shop proper.  Now layout your best paths minimizing turns as much as possible.  Can you adjust your tool layout to come to a compromise between ideal machine placement and a significant duct routing or gate position idea?

DC is planned to be inside the shed that runs the outside length of the left wall. I could in theory bring it in anywhere along that wall, so pushing all the dust-generators over there makes sense. I was hoping to run the ducts high up on the (12') walls, but I could drop the trunk down a bit to run underneath the tracks for the garage door.

On 12/23/2021 at 6:07 AM, Chestnut said:

Consider standing lumber on end, a horizontal rack sucks. Like it REALLY sucks. you have tall cielings so you have zero limits for length of borads stood on end. Vertical storage is WAY easier to pick through for grain matching etc. Put your lumber storage area near a door and account for 2x more space than you need to allow boards to be shuffled around. So for example in a 24" x24" by 12' space you can store 576 BF of lumber. Flip that side ways and consider how much wall and floor space you'd loose. Also horizontal racking is EXPENSIVE.

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 AM, gee-dub said:

I went with 10' ceilings and can store shorter lumber on end.  This was my preferred method at the old shop.

This lets you go through material like books on a shelf instead of un-stacking things all the time.  In the new shop shorter stuff will stand and longer material will go in racks.

100% agreed. The marked lumber storage will be vertical. I don't have a place I love to put lumber adjacent to the doors, since they run right up against the left wall, and on the right side I have the electrical panel, man-door, window, and stairs. I suppose I could put them in the lower-middle section of the half-wall, leaning up against the loft. That positioning isn't much closer to the lumber shed, but would be slightly easier to load from a truck, and makes room for the bench to be near a wall and window (I really want to get some natural light coming in on that work surface).

On 12/23/2021 at 6:07 AM, Chestnut said:

Spreading out seems nice but it might work better to group tools and keep them close if possible. If you have to walk across the shop to go between commonly used tools it may not seem like a big deal but it can slow you down and make you more tired. Long term effects that may result in less production and not wanting to be in your shop as much.

Best advice is to get a tentative lay out don't run ducts if possible, get in the space and start using it. after your first project your layout will change drastically. 2 years down the road you may want things entirely differently than originally planned.

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 AM, gee-dub said:

Chestnut is also right on target about workflow and machine positions.  A few extra steps doesn't seem like a big deal when drawing a floor plan on paper.  Somewhere around the 457th time you have to walk around something to get to the tool you always use "next" you will start to think about rearranging :D.  In my shop the bandsaw, jointer, and planer are a team and are placed in a cluster.  Maybe not so much for you but you get the idea.

My thinking is that most operations will be back and forth from the assembly table, where I'll have things laid out and any plans assigned, or possibly a traveler cart. I'm not sure if (or how long) I'll stick with my coffee-powered jointer (myself and a #7) or invest in a big machine tool, though I'm trying to at least include space for a big jointer. My only real experience with a powered jointer was a dull and rusty 4" Delta I inherited and tried to rehab.

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 AM, gee-dub said:

Forge ahead and thanks for dragging us along.  I always enjoy and benefit from seeing how others do things and the decisions they make.  Most of the ideas in my shop came from years of looking at other people's :)

Glad to have all of you along for the ride.

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12 hours ago, BonPacific said:

I legitimately don't know if I want to tackle something of that scale even with the space now to do so.

I find that the only real restriction on building larger projects in my small space is finding room for assembly. Goes back to someone's ( @Chestnut,maybe?) earlier point about leaving some open room. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I'd have to figure out what was under there. If anything to remove the detritus and fill with proper material.

I wonder if it just wasn't a way for some previous owner to get the floor off the dirt at some point. I don't know how old the property is but maybe it was a workshop and this was their antifatigue mat?

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You could try finding some historical aerial photos of your property. If you download Google Earth you can go back some, but if it's before they started collecting photos maybe some county/state photos would be available. Or you could look at old permits?

Maybe it's some backfill for a removed septic tank? Or the base for an oil tank to heat the garage?

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On 1/19/2022 at 1:25 PM, BonPacific said:

Time flies eh?

Insulation

I got one completed quote for spray foam insulation, which was unsurprisingly a kick to the wallet. Getting the whole shop up to residential insulation (R38ish in the ceiling, 21 in the walls) came in at a solid $21k. If I did just the ceiling and reduced the spray thickness it's only $7.5k, which is still my entire on-hand cash reserve for getting the shop up to snuff.

 

 

So, I am a step or two ahead of you.  My shop is 30x40x12'.  For walls, 2 inches of HD closed cell foam, 4 inches of cellulose.  Blown ceiling to R50.  Came to just over $5k.  These are midwestern prices, not eastern WA - which I just left.  Temps have been low, high today of 12F, lows hovering around 0F.  Keeping the shop at 60F.  been working out there a fair amount and have been surprised at how seldom the furnace kicks on.  I give most of the credit to the foam, there are no air leaks.   I will find out how well it is working when I get my next propane bill.  I did not want to pop for the insulation either, but figured I cry once, or every time I got a propane bill in the winter, or electric bill in the summer (AC).

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On 1/20/2022 at 9:39 PM, justaguy said:

So, I am a step or two ahead of you.  My shop is 30x40x12'.  For walls, 2 inches of HD closed cell foam, 4 inches of cellulose.  Blown ceiling to R50.  Came to just over $5k.  These are midwestern prices, not eastern WA - which I just left.  Temps have been low, high today of 12F, lows hovering around 0F.  Keeping the shop at 60F.  been working out there a fair amount and have been surprised at how seldom the furnace kicks on.  I give most of the credit to the foam, there are no air leaks.   I will find out how well it is working when I get my next propane bill.  I did not want to pop for the insulation either, but figured I cry once, or every time I got a propane bill in the winter, or electric bill in the summer (AC).

Do you have vertical bays or horizontal? My concern with blown in would be a lot of settling given my bookshelf girts.

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  • BonPacific changed the title to New Shop (The New Mossback Workshop)

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