New Shop (The New Mossback Workshop)

[Mark J]

I like your neck down glue storage solution.

[Chestnut]

On 2/11/2022 at 1:10 PM, legenddc said:

slapped some dry erase duct tape on the totes

Didn't know this was a thing. You just solved a problem for me. We have started stacking totes in our garage and were trying to figure out a way to label them.

[justaguy]

How's the shop coming?

[BonPacific]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:36 AM, justaguy said:

How's the shop coming?

Slowly but surely. I finally got a quote I could stomach for insulating the ceiling, and I've got them scheduled for the beginning of next month. $5k for 3" polyiso, caulked and foamed in for a good airseal. Still not %100 sure what I'm doing on the walls.

Also got 1 of the new circuits fully wired, and the other two are about 50% done. Thankfully I've been able to use a couple hundred feet of 12-2 I had left over, as their price is through the roof like everything else these days.

[BonPacific]

First, the good news. I got all the wiring roughed in and passed cover inspection. Hit it off nicely with the local electrical inspector, which is always good. He also gave me a few nice tips for any future work I do. The panel is definitely at capacity, but I should be well covered for regular outlets, the table saw, and there's a couple existing circuits I can re-purpose as needed for any more 220v tools down the line.

I did 90% of the work with classic metal staples, before being converted to the infinitely nicer to use nailed plastic clips. You always learn the best lessons at the end of the job.

After that though... Things take a turn.

As I mentioned previously I'd gotten a quote I could stomach for a "cut-and-cobble" insulation job on the ceiling. There's a higher risk of failure with this technique, but the company estimator gave me a good pitch, they had excellent reviews, and I decided to take the risk. I'll have to replace the roofing (currently basic 3-tab shingles) in 5-8 years anyways, so I'd have a chance to add ventilation from the outside if problems cropped up. This was the same situation I ran into with my previous garage (with finished attic) and I've known a few pole building homes that have had to do it as well.

The job had two line items.

1. Full airseal with weatherproof/mold-resistant caulking. Specifically including every joint and penetration in the exterior envelope of the ceiling.
2. 3" of rigid polyiso insulation cut and glued into the purlin bays and fully sealed around the ends and edges with spray foam.

During scheduling they expected the job to only take one day. I didn't believe this for a second (it's 1260 sqft of insulation) but they assured me if it needed more time they'd work the weekend.

Come Friday morning the crew arrived fashionably (about an hour) late. Not a big deal, I work from home. The foreman wouldn't be around till later that day (first warning flag), but the crew got started immediately.

Something i didn't notice until the next day: The long ladder at the shallow angle and the smaller A-frame on the right side are my ladders. They did not ask me before they pulled them out of where I had stored them. The long ladder is definitely not safe in this configuration as it only has one skid-pad on the bottom and they hadn't affixed the top to the girt it is resting on. Thankfully nobody got hurt.

Around noon I walked out to see how they were progressing, and noticed the first (of what would become many) installation problems. Crew member #1 was taping off panels, which I could see from the ground had not had spray-foam added to seal it in the bay. I pointed this out and another crewman promised they'd redo that immediately. They did not redo those panels. You can also see a noticeable difference in the gap between the foam and the sheathing.

Around 1PM the foreman finally arrived, and we talked over a few things. According to him they needed to install the rigid foam with a 1" airgap above it for fire-code reasons, and needed to nail up some retention cleats in-case any of them "fall out". I have not been able to confirm or disprove that this is actually required, but this was definitely concerning to hear, and went directly against what the estimator (who I later found out was the company owner) had described of the system.

While he was explained the required gap, I watched one of the crew gluing (liquid nails) a panel directly to the sheathing. Foreman immediately said they'd replace that piece and told that crew member to stop. Concern growing, I asked about the airseal and was assured by the foreman and the crew that they were caulking everything before putting up foam. I would later determine that was a bald-faced lie by the crewmember. I had to get back to work, but I made a note to check this later.

The foreman left not long after, and I was caught up at work until the crew packed up around 5. They asked if they could leave their tools and materials in the shop overnight and they'd be back tomorrow morning. I said this was fine and after they'd left I went out to do a walkthrough. This is when the horror show really set in.

The first thing I noticed was they'd left a pile of plastic wrap and insulation scraps sitting on-top of my big electric heater, which has several very visible warning labels to not do that. I cleared it off and unplugged the whole thing to be safe.

Then I started poking around at the panels they'd gotten installed.

This photo is facing the eave where a purlin passes through the blocking at the top of the truss. That's an exterior joint, notably lacking either caulking to airseal from the outside (on a bright day you can see light around that 2x6) or spray foam to airseal it from the interior space. This panel was completely "finished", with cleat and tape installed (I pulled it back to check).

It was the same story basically everywhere I looked. Pieces were miss-matched at the joint, missing caulk or foam, or affixed completely randomly. Some were glued to the sheathing, some were floating an inch or more below, with no rhyme nor reason to any of it.

Looking at the tools and materials they'd left behind, I noted they didn't even bring any caulking with them.

Day 2 arrivesd, and I told the crew (when they called me to tell me they'll be an hour late) that I'm going to need to talk to the foreman before any more work happens. I'm 95% sure at this point I'm going to pull the plug on the whole job, but I'm going to at least talk through it first.

Crew arrives, tells me foreman in 10 minutes behind them. I point out the myriad problems with the installation and they all get very quiet. I tell them to hold off on doing any work and wait until the foreman arrives. He does, about half an hour later as I'm standing in the shop noticing more and more problems everywhere I look. This is also when I realize they've been using my ladders without permission. I pulled out the contract, and I'm fairly certain this was the first time he or anyone on the crew had even seen it. I don't know how they bungled communication this badly, but even if the airseal hadn't been part of the job the foam work itself was completely unacceptable.

Credit where it is due, when I pointed out all the problems the foreman doesn't try and BS or gaslight me. He was very polite and contrite about the problems, agreeing that nothing here was acceptable. He tried briefly to salvage the job, offering a discount and to re-start with his "best crew" (which I noted was 2 of the same 3 guys from yesterday including the one who lied to my face about caulking the joints). I pulled the plug and had him and his crew rip out everything they'd installed yesterday and truck it off. The problems were even more glaring as they were taking things down, showing just how little anyone on the crew understood or cared about their work.

So insulation is right back to square one, and I'm feeling pretty defeated over the whole thing. No idea where I'm going from here, but just buying my own spray-foam tanks is starting to look more appealing versus relying on contractors (most of whom were flaky enough just trying to get a quote much less this horror show). Thankfully I'm not out any money, just a lot of time.

 

 

[Chestnut]

That sucks. Seems like an easy process it's hard to believe they messed it up. Doesn't seem like they ever intended to do it the right way honestly.

[justaguy]

I am sorry you have to go through this BS

[Tom King]

People still ask me why I do everything myself. 

[Coop]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:07 PM, Tom King said:

People still ask me why I do everything myself. 

But you shouldn’t have to and some folks can’t. Crappy contractors are appearing to be the norm. 

[Tom King]

Crappy contractors have been the norm since I first started.  I really don't mind doing everything myself.  I made a very good living at it.  It's a lot less aggravating to me than all that's involved with getting someone else to do it.  When I first started in 1974, the first house I built I used contractors because I didn't really know how to do anything.  That was the last time I've ever used one.  This was the middle of nowhere then, so it was probably even worse than it is now, but I wouldn't bet on it.

First, it's almost impossible to do any kind of job well when you don't have good working conditions.  Doing that job off ladders is not going to work.  I would at least want a man lift.  If the worker gets tired early, the job suffers as it goes along.

The little bathroom house I'm redoing is a good example.  The 14' long walls are 3-1/2" out of parallel.  They set the first wall plate, measured from outside to outside on one end, and the other end outside to inside.  I know that must have been what happened.  The biggest trouble with people doing the simplest jobs is keeping their mind on the work.  Nothing aggravates me any more than having people around who want to talk about something else while they're trying to do work.

That's just one problem.  Others will be there when one trade follows another.  It's always the other guys fault.

One advantage of doing everything is I can do any part of the job as it went along.  With that building as an example, I would have put the insulation in place as a part of building the roof.  If it was already built, then it has to be dealt with, but the worker needs to be comfortable and safe to do good work.

[BonPacific]

On 3/20/2022 at 1:23 PM, Chestnut said:

That sucks. Seems like an easy process it's hard to believe they messed it up. Doesn't seem like they ever intended to do it the right way honestly.

This was my read as well. I wouldn't be surprised if I caught the foreman skipping work day 1, and the crew not caring in the first place. I get the feeling there were problems at the company even before the crew got started.

It wasn't even like they were rushing through the job and cutting corners, which while bad is a little more understandable. Work was both slow and shoddy.

On 3/20/2022 at 4:07 PM, Tom King said:

People still ask me why I do everything myself. 

I wish it didn't have to so often come down to this, or that DIY wasn't equally as much of a crapshot. I had to fix a ton of problems (electrical in particular) at my previous house that the prior owner had DIY'd. But it wasn't much better with the contractors back there either.

Even with reviews, recommendations, doing my own research, and avoiding the cheapest or youngest companies I'm averaging about 50/50 good/bad contractors (the roofers I used last is another horror story).

Most of us just don't have the time to become expert builders in addition to a dayjob and hobbies.

On 3/21/2022 at 5:35 AM, Tom King said:

First, it's almost impossible to do any kind of job well when you don't have good working conditions.  ... If the worker gets tired early, the job suffers as it goes along.

...

If it was already built, then it has to be dealt with, but the worker needs to be comfortable and safe to do good work.

This is an important point that seems lost on so many employers, regardless of industry.

[BonPacific]

Whew! Feels like it's been a slog getting to this point, but things are finally feeling like some real progress has happened.

After the <BLEEP> insulation job above I took a couple weeks off, before trying again with a recommendation from an acquaintance for a company that "wasn't run by morons back when I was in the biz". And thankfully that was still the case, as they did a bang-up job. I decided to bite the bullet and get 3" spray foam. Do it right or pay twice.

In progress shot. Two guys got the whole roof done in a long day. They did leave the scissor lift behind for a week, but that was an issue with the rental company not the installers. I also got some use out of it, installing two electrical cord reels on the trusses while it was there.

After they got the ceiling done, I put in an order for 5.5" thick mineral wool batts. The delivery included forklifting the palets into my shop, which was very much appreciated.

With some help from my inlaws I got the walls 90% insulated in about 3 days. There's one or two bays I'm holding off on for other tasks (like installing a window and running dust collection pipe).

In-between the insulation stages, I cleaned my floors and refit the existing rubber mats better, before fixing them in place (I left room for expansion) with a couple of tapcon screws and brass bushings along the front edge. This helps keep them from shifting around when driving a vehicle in and out of the shop. I don't remember where I read about this tip, but I can 100% recommend it.

Next step is going to be covering the lower 8' of wall with t1-11. I bought a pallet from the big orange store, which should wrap the lower shop area. I'll switch to hardboard (pre-primed white) for the top 4' of wall that this plywood won't cover. At that height I'm not worried about being able to screw into any spot.

And, as is apparently tradition, some bonus wild (and not so wild) life.

Flushed this little (~3") guy out while mowing around the shop.

[Coop]

To get the 3” of foam, since it’s overhead, did they have to spray multiple thin layers? 

[BonPacific]

On 5/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Coop said:

To get the 3” of foam, since it’s overhead, did they have to spray multiple thin layers? 

Yeah. It looked like they'd do it it 2-3 passes over a section, with a couple minutes between. I checked the depth as well, and it's 3" at a minimum, more like 3.5-4" over most of it.

[justaguy]

It is looking really good.  I started on mine at the end of Sept, '21.  Finally rounding the last turn

[BonPacific]

Been awhile...

Walls

The T1-11 went up without too much trouble, aside from the usual errors that creep in when measuring for outlet boxes. Should have measured thrice. I got some help from my wife, but most of the panels were cut and wrestled into place solo.

After the lower 8' was done, I switched to 5mm underlay plywood for the upper layer. It's pretty floppy and bulges out over the insulation, but it's cheap, decent looking, and protects the insulation. I still need to trim out the transition to keep the underlay flat. I'm considering doing  a french cleat all the way around, because why not?

I'm doing all the loft walls in the 5mm ply, since I'm not really worried about hanging stuff on it, or routinely smashing into it. Most of the walls up here will be covered in shelves anyways.

The front wall is framed every which way to sunday... It's also more than 50% door/window, so I've been kind of avoiding dealing with it until the easier part of the structure is finished. I'm alternating between just buying a bale of 4" insulation, or furring it out to use my remaining 6" batts. The spacing is all over the place though so I'll have to cut every batt to fit regardless.

Back Window

I wanted to make the shop a little less cave-like and bring in some natural light near the planned bench location and allow a nice cross breeze on pleasant days. My father had a 5' window laying around which I was able to snag for free. Almost could have gone larger, but not at the prices of new windows.

A fine homebuilder I am not, but I was able to cut a notch in the old fiber siding, flash, seal, and trim it up well enough for my needs. This window faces south across the neighbor's pasture.

Dust collection
I've been holding off on running ducting because I didn't like the idea of redoing it soon and my little HF collector and Oneida cyclone just wouldn't be up to the task of 6" pipe. Luckily I was able to snag an old 3HP blower, so I'll be running a 6" metal ducting main. I'm not 100% sure if I'm going to go with 6" or 4" drops to the machines. From reading it seems the increased airspeed of the smaller diameter will be more important with such tall ceilings than volume. And I'm much more willing to swap out verticals than redo the entire system.

Tables and Benches and Storage oh my!
Another thing I did was expand the rubber flooring under the loft. I'll still need one more trip to the tractor supply to cover the entryway, but at least now I can roll my carts anywhere in the shop as needed

I got this stack of flat files from a local surveying business, and added 3" casters so I can access the underside of the stairs for deep storage. I removed two drawers, and extended the drawer fronts with plywood so as to have two double-height drawers. The flat storage is already starting to fill up with hardware and materials, and I'm treating the top as my "red tag" space for collecting miscellaneous things that haven't been sorted or are otherwise missing a home.

This is what I'm calling my finishing corner for the moment. I don't have a real spray system, but this area is still designated for finishing tasks and has already been used a few times. I'll probably add a small exhaust fan to vent fumes outside, and might add a curtain or something to protect the rest of the shop (and reduce dust intrusion) when using rattle cans or the like.

While a little cart-before-the-horse, I added a dedicated sharpening cart. Still extremely basic, but having my grinder and stones always available should help me keep up with my sharpening. It'll live next to the lathe, but with wheels I can easily drag it over next to the workbench when needed.

The vari-grind setup is absolutely worth it. If you're considering one I heartily recommend it

Next steps will be tearing down the entry-way shelves that came with the place so I can get the last of the walls up, running DC ducting, and insulating the front wall as best I can.

Bonus shop dog.

[wtnhighlander]

I think you will appreciate having the sharpening cart ready to go!

[Coop]

That is going to be a really sweet work shop. Will you be painting the walls?

[BonPacific]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:02 PM, Coop said:

That is going to be a really sweet work shop. Will you be painting the walls?

Plan is to leave them natural. I can always change my mind and paint them white down the line.

[Coop]

Although I like the look of natural wood and cringe when I have to paint something I made at the order of the recipient, I think you would be amazed at how much brighter and larger the area will look and feel if it were painted whitish. 

[BonPacific]

I did the white paint in my last shop. This shop is already more than large enough feeling. I'm enjoying the "warmth" of the current ambiance in the shop, which helps motivate me to get out there and do stuff.