Milling Your Own vs s4s

[Coop]

Just wondered about the difference in cost.Has anyone ever compared your cost of milled s4s lumber against the cost of rough cut lumber, taking into consideration of the waste, say getting 4/4 down to 3/4”? Not even considering the cost of a jointer and planer? Even worse on thicker stock.  And milling which, IMO, is third below watching paint dry and sanding.

[wtnhighlander]

@Coop, I haven't done a cost analysis for anything but Box Store lumber, as there is no other retail source for S4S in my area. In that comparison, milling myself wins, hands down. Not only can I guarantee straight & flat at the desired thickness, but intitial material cost of rough is about 30% of what the box store charges.

[Askland09]

Reference prices where I get my stock for walnut:

s4s at supplier: $16-22/bf

rough from mill I buy from: $6-10/bf

I personally enjoy the milling process as well but the cost savings with just a few projects allowed me to upgrade a planer and bandsaw alone. 

  

[legenddc]

There's a new place by me that is getting set up to have most of the more common boards as S3S. Last I was there they claimed it would be for the same price but we'll see.

[JohnG]

On 5/3/2022 at 8:00 AM, Askland09 said:

Reference prices where I get my stock for walnut:

s4s at supplier: $16-22/bf

rough from mill I buy from: $6-10/bf

I personally enjoy the milling process as well but the cost savings with just a few projects allowed me to upgrade a planer and bandsaw alone. 

  

Grade and thickness same for both? 

[soonerdg]

As far as cost I find the same as Askland09.  Rough milled roughly half the cost of s4s.

For me there are other considerations.  1 big one is I don't have to take my stock to 3/4.  I can make it slightly heavier if I want to.  Or slightly thinner.  Plus, when I get to my final thickness I can know I have straight, square and flat boards.  More often than not s4s will require some bit of milling to get straight, flat and square.  As far as waste, you're paying for the waste on s4s as well.  Generally their pricing is done based on the BF before milling.  Another reason it's more expensive.  To minimize waste i buy boards close to the thickness that I want.  If I want 3/4 i buy 4/4 lumber.  If i want thicker end stock I go to 6/4 or 8/4.  If I need to go thinner than about 3/4 of the rough thickness then I generally will resaw before milling.

[G Ragatz]

The place I buy most of my lumber has a variety of milling options, all of which seem pretty reasonably priced. They'll joint one face for $8.00 minimum and $0.08/bf for 100 bf and over. I always go for at least that much milling, as I only have a 6" benchtop jointer. I have a 12" planer, so I can take it from there if I need/want to.  S2S is another $0.09/bf (100+).

They'll joint a side, rip a clean edge and then surface two sides for $0.25/bf (100+) - this is what I usually do. This doesn't guarantee that the stock will be uniform thickness from board to board - they try to remove the minimum amount of stock to get each surface smooth. 4/4 rough stock usually ends up at about 7/8", but it varies a little. They have an option to have stock milled to your specified final thickness, which costs a little more, but I've not tried that (I try to buy 100 bf at a time, and I don't always know what finished thickness I want for all of it).

It pretty much always makes sense for me to have them do most of the milling.

Now, they also sell individual S4S boards that they have milled to 1/2", 3/4" or 1" - ready to sand lightly and finish. These sell for probably about twice what you would pay per bf compared to rough stock. I've done this a few times when I just needed a board or two for a small project (and especially when I didn't want to screw around planing thicker stock down to 1/2"), but it gets expensive.

 

[curlyoak]

What if the rough board is bowed? And 8' long. You might need 8/4 to get 3/4. But if your shorter pieced, say 2', it is easy to remove the box on a shorter length. I cut rough boards to length needed and look for the straightest boards if I need to make a tall door. On short pieces I might cut enough for 2 or 3 pieces to reduce handling if the wood allows. And try to fix a project that you assumed the thickness was even, but it wasn't. 

To me dressing lumber is like building a foundation to a building. getting the foundation level, square and plumb makes the rest of the build go good and faster. Same is true in a woodworking project. If the boards are flat and straight, Then have a chance at doing some good work. s4s puts me at risk and possibly wood I cant use. If it is 3/4" there is nothing left for me to true up if needed.

[Chestnut]

I used S3s a lot before I had a jointer and planer and it created more problems than it was worth. As others have mentioned even after it's milled it's not necessarily strait to what some furniture parts are goign to require. If I'm goign to do some milling might as well save the money and do all the milling and have more control over the material.

I'm also starting to be a LARGE proponent of FAS and select lumber being pointless for most small furniture. I've bought some 1com and 2 com lumber, the cost savings more than makes up for the waste and in walnut i get FAR less sap and way more interesting character in the wood. There are a few more knot fills but that isn't a big deal imo. My last purchase I bought 6/4 #2com walnut for $7 / BF. Select and better was $13 and was only guaranteed 70% heart wood. the #2com was almost 95% heart.

[Mark J]

What about using lumber yard S4S for small projects like boxes?

I'd like to be able to do more flatwork projects, like Beads of Courage boxes, but I don't have a jointer or planer, and have no space to site them if I did. 

[Jonathan McCully]

Just for some additional info, I thought I'd add an order I recently placed with Bell Forrest. I bought a total of 370 bf of soft maple and cherry and they charged me $135 to make it S3S. Seemed a small cost to me compared to the amount of time it would take me to mill all of that with my small jointer and lunchbox planer. I'm hoping it comes straight and flat, and can definitely see the benefit in doing it yourself to avoid some of those changes.

[Jar944]

Depending on what you are trying to yield, and if you are concerned about straight and flat. Most s4s is just run through a moulder. It's straighter and flater but not guaranteed to be straight and flat.  

I can typically net 1" finished (typically. 980") from 4/4 rough stock. To get that from s4s I would be buying 5/4. 

[wtnhighlander]

5 hours ago, Mark J said:

What about using lumber yard S4S for small projects like boxes?

I'd like to be able to do more flatwork projects, like Beads of Courage boxes, but I don't have a jointer or planer, and have no space to site them if I did. 

@Mark J, for stock up to 3" wide, I have good success milling it with just my tablesaw. With a taller auxilliary fence, I'm sure 6" width milling is achievable. Does require accurate setup, and a sharp, clean blade.

[pkinneb]

I prefer rough not becuase of cost but becuase because it provides the ability to mill to the thickness I want, which a lot of times is not 3/4" 

[BillyJack]

There's not enough saving for me to surface my own. Liberty Hardwoods and Paxton Lumber company here in KC charge the same. So I let them do the work and clean up...You get charged for surfacing either way..

 

Now if I'm only needing 30bd ft. No big deal I'll use my planer. 500', heck with that..

[Coop]

All valid answers, thanks. And my question has nothing to do with my current project regarding purchasing as I am milling existing 7/4 walnut down to 3/4” for a table top. I opted not to re-saw these planks as they are the last of my walnut and I didn’t want to screw it up. 

Which brings me to another somewhat relevant question. When a person says that he has planed over 1000’ bf of lumber on a set of blades,  does it mean that he made one pass over 1,000 bf or 10 passes over 100bf? Or, he’s just guessing and really doesn’t have a clue?

[Jar944]

On 5/4/2022 at 10:20 PM, Coop said:

All valid answers, thanks. And my question has nothing to do with my current project regarding purchasing as I am milling existing 7/4 walnut down to 3/4” for a table top. I opted not to re-saw these planks as they are the last of my walnut and I didn’t want to screw it up. 

Which brings me to another somewhat relevant question. When a person says that he has planed over 1000’ bf of lumber on a set of blades,  does it mean that he made one pass over 1,000 bf or 10 passes over 100bf? Or, he’s just guessing and really doesn’t have a clue?

Normally it would be total bdft in the pile, regardless of surface feet planed.  Buy a 2000bdft pack and surface all of it. You just planed 2000bdft. Could gave been 4/4 or 16/4, one pass or three.. 

Time spent milling also depends on your equipment..  the person with a lunchbox planer and a sled spends a lot more time processing than someone with a 25hp planer, a 7.5hp facer and a 20hp SLR. 

[Chestnut]

10 hours ago, Coop said:

Or, he’s just guessing and really doesn’t have a clue?

Probably this. I've lost track of how much lumber i've ran through my planer and jointer. I know that i probably need to rotate my inserts though.

[BillyJack]

 Depends on the planer and material..

[Jar944]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:09 AM, BillyJack said:

 Depends on the planer and material..

Newman Whitney rated their quiet cut head at 500,000 bdft between sharpening. No mention of material, but one would assume domestic hardwood. 

[Jar944]

On 5/5/2022 at 8:28 AM, Chestnut said:

Probably this. I've lost track of how much lumber i've ran through my planer and jointer. I know that i probably need to rotate my inserts though.

I'd guess that depends on how much / often you run material. If it's 25bdft here and there and you buy only enough material for each project you might have a good idea.  

[BillyJack]

I think I've sharpened twice in 18 years. Once because I ran used treated deck material. 

Most don't know how dull they are till their planer labors or they take the time to check the blade status. Woodworkers don't find changing planer blades the same as changing saw blades. Ignore it often too long and I'm guilty..

[G Ragatz]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:27 PM, Jonathan McCully said:

Just for some additional info, I thought I'd add an order I recently placed with Bell Forrest. I bought a total of 370 bf of soft maple and cherry and they charged me $135 to make it S3S. Seemed a small cost to me compared to the amount of time it would take me to mill all of that with my small jointer and lunchbox planer. I'm hoping it comes straight and flat, and can definitely see the benefit in doing it yourself to avoid some of those changes.

I bought a couple of "project packs" from Bell in 2020, when we were not getting out much due to the pandemic. These were shorts, all milled to a consistent 13/16". I was pleased with the quality of the lumber I got. Straight and flat, not too much sapwood. Hope you have a similar experience.

[krtwood]

At my lumberyard it's typically only $0.25/BF more for s3s and given that I only have a lunchbox planer so it takes forever and a week to mill rough lumber, I typically buy the s3s.  What's odd about my yard is that they only stock s3s for most species for 4/4 material, but they only stock rough in the thicker material.  So you have to order rough 4/4 ahead of time and ask for surfaced thicker stuff.

The biggest thing I prefer about surfaced material is you can see what you're buying.  For the life of me I cannot even tell the difference between heartwood and sapwood in rough stock in the lighting at the yard.  I can kind of tell when I get it in the shop.  

[BillyJack]

Looking at the prices, I want to know exactly what I'm buying before I pay for it