Table frame glue-up suggestions please

[Meatwad]

I've got a narrow table, 12 in x 45 in, and I am putting the finish on the pieces. The next step will be gluing the frame up. The top aprons are MT joints while both the narrow ends have a smaller lower apron with dowel joints. At first I thought I could do the narrow ends by themselves one at a time and then glue them to the long aprons. That way I wouldn't have to manage so much at once. But now I am worried that my MTs could be off a little and I won't notice it.

Is there a good approach to this I haven't figured out?

[curlyoak]

It would be better if you furnished a few pictures.

[treeslayer]

a dry fit is what i would recommend, that should tell you if everything is correct

[Meatwad]

A dry fitting looks good. I'll get some pics up when my finish dries.

[RichardA]

One of the errors in a dry fit, is in not making sure that the pieces in the dry fit, is the same as when glue is used.  A dry fit includes all the clamps you are going to need to get this frame in it's finished condition.  Clamps!

[wtnhighlander]

This is the hazard of pre-finishing. I suggest either leaving the surface which are accessible after assembly bare, or at least use a finish that is easy to repair or re-apply. Trimming parts to fit after gluing the previous sub-assembky is much simpler if you don't have to repair finish, too.

[Meatwad]

Ok, I finally got all my pieces finished and got my clamps together. As far as I can tell I've got 2 options for glue timing:

1. Glue the narrow ends separately, 2 tenons and 4 dowels on each end, and then glue the long aprons as a separate step.
2. Glue all of it at once.

I'm leaning toward the first approach because that's a lot of joints to check trying to glue it all at once and I'm worried about the glue setting in before I discover a problem.

And then my other option is gluing the frame legs up or legs down. Seems like legs up is easier but legs down lets me see if the legs are crooked where they meet the floor.

 

 

[RichardA]

Legs up is the best way.  On a "flat" bench or table. All you need now is to use a square as you adjust the clamps, to get your legs in the position you need them to be in.  Once the legs are square to the flatness, now check all your joints, are they snug, are there gaps you need to fill.  Put paper under your work on the bench before you start your glue up, have a rag and a bowl of water nearby, cleaning up spills, and squeeze out.  Then take your time.

[Meatwad]

On 9/14/2022 at 7:05 PM, RichardA said:

Legs up is the best way.  On a "flat" bench or table. All you need now is to use a square as you adjust the clamps, to get your legs in the position you need them to be in.  Once the legs are square to the flatness, now check all your joints, are they snug, are there gaps you need to fill.  Put paper under your work on the bench before you start your glue up, have a rag and a bowl of water nearby, cleaning up spills, and squeeze out.  Then take your time.

The way you quoted "flat" makes me think you mean something different there :)

For tables I pretty much have what you see in my pic which is not quite long enough for what I need. I could scoot them together and use some scraps to even out my clamps but I'm not sure squaring them against that would be accurate enough. Maybe I could just measure squareness against the steel bar on my clamps?

[RichardA]

Just suppose, that your clamp is a 1/16th higher or lower on one end?  How long is your bench?  Put a chunk of 3/4 plywood on the benchtop, a hair longer than the table you are constructing.  if it's on a flat surface, then you can square everything up to the ply!

[Ronn W]

I agree doing with your 2 step glueing process.  I almost never try to glue all 4 sides at the same time...  and I agrre/ legs up but you do need a flat surface.  I pieces of 3/4" MDF or flat plywood sould give you that if your glueing bench is not flat.   Shim the corners of the MDF and check with a straight edge to make it flat.  You can also cover you table saw and use that for your flat surface.  I use a piece of melamine with rasie curbs on 2 adjacent side that meet at a corner and I know that the raise curbs mee at 90 deg - helps in squaring up the piece.

Oops - looked at your picture -----In you case with a long piece - take the time get all 4 corners in the same plane as if they were a flat table.  It's time well spent.

[RichardA]

Flat....... Solves a lot of problems.

[Meatwad]

Well I got it in the clamps finally on the last glue-up. I did wind up doing the narrow ends separately and everything fit together well. But on my actually glue-up for the long aprons my clamps started bending and after I got that settled I was chasing square all over the place on those legs. Unfortunately I'm not great at MT joints yet so my tenon shoulders aren't a good fit at each joint and that makes it pretty hard to see if I've got the tenons all the way in. So far so good!

 

[RichardA]

Dealing with a learning curve can sometimes drive you to drink.  { that's why I keep a bottle of Jack close by!  I don't have to drive to get it. }  Patience is the key to making a good M/T joint.  practice is the cure.....  You can take some scraps, and practice. It'll eventually become a muscle memory, and you'll question yourself less and less.  Keep trying.  

[Meatwad]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:33 AM, RichardA said:

Dealing with a learning curve can sometimes drive you to drink.  { that's why I keep a bottle of Jack close by!  I don't have to drive to get it. }  Patience is the key to making a good M/T joint.  practice is the cure.....  You can take some scraps, and practice. It'll eventually become a muscle memory, and you'll question yourself less and less.  Keep trying.  

Yeah I've gotten better at them the more I do them. I've learned that each method of doing them takes practice. First I started cutting tenons by hand and that was very time consuming. I do them on my router table now but at some point when I defined the shoulders I got my lines off a little so one side of my apron would be a little shorter than the other. I have accepted I am not great yet.

But this glue-up almost gave me a heart attack racing around checking angles.

[RichardA]

There are many ways to make a tenon.  However I would suggest, and I'm saying this from experience.   Make your mortise first. Take your time and get it smooth on the insides, and as clean as possible.    Then cut your tenon, in any way that works for you, but cut it longer wider and thicker than the mortise your going to put it in.  Then with a block plane or a shoulder plane take thin fine cuts equally from both side and along the top and bottom of the tenon. This is especially important if the tenon is to stay in the center of your piece. You only want to take a little at a time from each side of the cheeks.  The same amount each time, until it fits snugly. Then the tops and bottoms.  The key here is to take the smallest amount possible to make all 4 edges fit as snug as you can make it.  Then, if the mortise sides are smooth and the tenon cheeks are smooth, there should be very little glue used to lock them into a single piece. And cut to length, leaving just a tiny space at the bottom of the mortise, to catch any squeeze out.  You can make a jig to slide on your table saw to cut the tenon shoulders exactly the same every time. And if you make the jig adjustable, you'll not need a bunch of jigs..   Always make the tenon second, and bigger in all directions so you can trim it down looking for that perfect fit.  Patience.

[treeslayer]

+1 ^ well said Rick

[Ronn W]

+1 = He does have a way with words.

[RichardA]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:50 PM, treeslayer said:

+1 ^ well said Rick

I'm not doing much in the shop, but I can still assist now and then.

[BillyJack]

How is this coming along?

[Meatwad]

Hey, Billy it's going good. I got the frame assembled and have been trying to get some time to finish the top.

[BillyJack]

Looking good…

[Meatwad]

This post is about a week late but I finally finished it!!