Popular Post gee-dub Posted October 31, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 When I was enlarging a lot of my 4" ports to 6" to try to milk some more years out of my current DC I stopped short. I just hit a point where I wanted to make furniture for a while and all I was doing was shop stuff. Nothing wrong with shop stuff . . . I love shop stuff . . . I had just been without a shop for so long I wanted to make something not-shop-stuff . As usual I have supplied way more info than anyone cares about . . . to the point. I found myself standing around waiting for glue to set and so checked my to-do list. There it was, still waiting . . . "enlarge edge sander dust port". The stock port is like so. When I moved the sander into the new shop I had just hung a 6" hose loosely on the port and called it good. Time for something better. A quick cobble of some plywood scraps, a plastic port, and some magnets. The hose now connects tightly. The magnets allow me to quickly remove the hood for sanding at the end of the belt. It can even hang on to the spindle table for some operations and still provide a bit of collection. That took just about enough time for the glue to set to the point where I can go back to what I was doing while checking one more thing off the list 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 It should work better with the 4” … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 What dust collector are you using.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted October 31, 2022 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 The collection with the 6" opening is very noticeably better than the 4". Kind of a 'night and day' sort of difference so that's cool. I have an older Grizzly G0440 which is a 2HP cyclone. I vent the cyclone outside so near-zero back pressure. This worked great in my 600 sq ft shop (with filtering the return air) . The current shop is bigger so I planned to upgrade. I built out the shop electrical and DC shed dimensions in anticipation of upgrading to a 5HP. With the 2020 opportunistic price spikes my shop build budget got challenged . I spent a fair amount of time on duct run layout and so forth to see if I might be able to squeeze a little more life out of my current 1300+ CFM collector. So far it is hanging in there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 We used the JET edge sander at the commercial shop with the grizzly DC. It worked fine on the 4". The 6" will have less pull than the 4" . I have a Grizzly edge sander with a 4" on it and works fine. Glad it works for you. Grizzly DC.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 My DC has 1260 and can only run two 4" vents properly at one time.. I believe it is a Shop Fox 1685.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 @gee-dub, I can see how the larger port / greater volume is beneficial for finer dust, as from a sander. How does it perform on a machine that makes heavier chips, like a table saw or router? Or worse, planer / jointer? Static pressure seem to be enough for those machines? My external vent setup is good at drawing dust from the air, but through the TS throat plate, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted November 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 @wtnhighlander - The first machine I enlarged to 6" was the tablesaw just because it happened to be the first machine I was setting up in the new shop. It is a Saw Stop PCS-3HP and has the blade shroud. I just enlarged the hole and cobbled together a wooden adapter plate to an inexpensive 6" plastic port fitting. I mounted the shroud hose in the opening so that the internal shroud hose still gets suction but now the rest of the cabinet does as well. The difference is easily noticed as less spoil makes its way back out of the cabinet and onto the top of the saw. This is not something that required a lot of study since it was so obvious. Things like edge trim cuts are still messy. Any cut that captures the blade, even just ripping a 1/4" off the edge of a board for example, gets much better collection. When using a sled I generally just leave the throat plate out which allows large volumes of air to flow into the throat opening (when the sled isn't on top of it ). Next was the router table change from 4" to 6". This one was really noticeable. Certainly there are some cuts where I want a tight fit around the bit for stock support and these restrict airflow. If this setup is used with a cut that doesn't benefit from the fence collection port things get messy. I have learned to use a throat ring that leaves a reasonable gap around the bit for air flow whenever I do not need a tight fit for stock support. This makes the collection much better for non-edge cuts. For edge cuts the 2-1/2" fence port combined with good airflow around the bit does quite well. Next was the 8" jointer which I ran at 4" for a while. Here again the move to 6" basically removes any spoil making its way out of the machine. Even with the harsh right turn out of the port the collection is much better. Being encouraged my the improvements (and the fairly minimal effort to get them) I took after the bandsaw. Here a 6" splits into two 4" collection points. I used to use a 4"with a 2-1/2" just below the table. I had capped off the lower port many years ago when I moved to under-the-table collection. The 2-1/2" did a great job of keeping spoil out of the lower cabinet but the guides and guide area still required blowing out every so often. The dual 4" setup works quite a bit better and the guides now stay pretty clean. I did not enlarge the drum sander. The Supermax 19-38 seems to have just the right design for a single 4" which kind of surprises me. I sand full width boards and still get no spoil back on the belt or material. If it ain't broke . . . My 15" floor planer still needs to be enlarged but I haven't thought of a way to do that yet that I am happy with. In the meantime the single 4" does well enough that I haven't felt the need to stop and do something about it . There are definitely machines that benefit from a higher velocity, lower volume type of suction. Hand routing, ROS work, circular saws, and miter saws all benefit from that high speed suck and do better with a vac than the DC in my shop. 4" ports on a DC work great for some machines like the 19-38 mentioned above. I try not to burn time and effort unless I am going to get a solid benefit. The tablesaw, router table, jointer, edge sander, and bandsaw mods? Very happy and the time and effort spent continues to pay dividends every time I use the machines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 Its great that your trying to upgrade, but be sure if its worth tye extra work and material. There would be no gain to making a Sawstop from a 4" to a 6"... I ran the DC from the main maybe 2003 . The Altendorf has a 5+ and is designed for it , but the Sawstop is not. Inside the sawstop has a choke point. "Bigger isn't always better" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 The air flow on 6" is just way more than 4". I have also taped the seams on my machines so there are less leak points and helps direct the air flow where it's beneficial. If you look at my shop pictures you can see where I did this as I used green tape. It made a big difference. The table saw setup is interesting. My biggest complaint with the collection on my table saw is that the cabinet gets filled and i have to vacuum out the inside because it gets past the internal shroud and has no where to go. I'll empty a 5 gallon pails worth every month or so. The collection at the saw isn't too bad all things considered, when i have the DC on.... I tend to make 1 or 2 cuts here and there with the DC off as sometimes it's not worth the wear on the starter cap to spin the cyclone up for one quick cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 On 11/2/2022 at 1:18 PM, Chestnut said: The air flow on 6" is just way more than 4". I have also taped the seams on my machines so there are less leak points and helps direct the air flow where it's beneficial. If you look at my shop pictures you can see where I did this as I used green tape. It made a big difference. The table saw setup is interesting. My biggest complaint with the collection on my table saw is that the cabinet gets filled and i have to vacuum out the inside because it gets past the internal shroud and has no where to go. I'll empty a 5 gallon pails worth every month or so. The collection at the saw isn't too bad all things considered, when i have the DC on.... I tend to make 1 or 2 cuts here and there with the DC off as sometimes it's not worth the wear on the starter cap to spin the cyclone up for one quick cut. I do the same thing. Always forget the DC for a few cuts. You can change it to a 6" , 8", 10", etc it won't increase the pull pressure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee-dub Posted November 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 On 11/2/2022 at 11:18 AM, Chestnut said: My biggest complaint with the collection on my table saw is that the cabinet gets filled and i have to vacuum out the inside because it gets past the internal shroud and has no where to go. Dust collection discussions are always interesting. There is so much science and so much voodoo . I use the science as a guideline and take my best shot in actual practice. I have been lucky with the little 2HP unit being able to keep up. I assume the fairly smooth and gentle duct pathways are a help. I haven't cleaned out the tablesaw cabinet for about a year and with the 6" connection it looks like this inside: I imagine there being some port area open to the cabinet is what is making this work. I always thought the shroud hose monopolizing the entire dust port was a bit odd. Prior to increasing to a 6" port I would have random spoil collect in the cabinet and have no where to go. Like Chestnut this called for an occasional shop vac to the rescue routine. Not a big deal but, I don't have to think about it now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 We had 6" coming down to the Sawstop. No gain. Remember you can only move so much inside the cabinet as it has a choke point at the blade and mechanism inside.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 As far as dust in the cabinet. It has a hose for the blade to the exterior DC. The DC isnt inside the cabinet random. Worst part about the DC inside is the part from the blade to the hose. It's a choke point. Doing dodos is a lot harder than regulator cutting. Some woods peel versus cut.. I used the Sawstop 7 years in a production enviroment. It and the Altendorf were mine to use, but at times at had to share on lage saw jobs from other users. When I left I felt the saw was Brett used up.. When it sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 13 hours ago, gee-dub said: Dust collection discussions are always interesting. There is so much science and so much voodoo . I use the science as a guideline and take my best shot in actual practice. I have been lucky with the little 2HP unit being able to keep up. I assume the fairly smooth and gentle duct pathways are a help. Dust collection can be incredibly complicated but also simple. Even with a pretty extensive background in fluid dynamics there is a lot of nuance with compressible fluids that leaves me lost but the basics are strait forward. Flow velocity and flow volume work together. Typically the collectors negative pressure sets the velocity so the port size is the main factor that changes collection ability. A 1" pipe will move 22 CFM of air and would be a terrible collector. Only dust moving slower than 45 mph near the 1" opening would be collected. That's an area of 0.005 Sq FT A 4" pipe will move 350 CFM of air and would be an OK collector. Only dust moving slower than 45 mph near the 4" opening would be collected. That's an area of .0872 Sq FT A 6" pipe will move 785 CFM of air and would be a good collector. Only dust moving slower than 45 mph near the 6" opening would be collected. That's an area of .1964 Sq FT The trick that makes the 6" so much better is that dust slows down in air quite quickly. By the time it moves across the 6" opening it would likely slow enough to get picked up. Most often our collectors are limited by the negative pressure they can generate. With a good 2hp collector that has a clean filter it should bee able to achieve peak static pressure even with a single 6" opening. The nuance is all the other stuff that's going on but the bottom line is the bigger port the more air that can get moved. Dust traveling faster than 45 mph just doesn't get collected as it is moving faster than the air. This all goes out the window if you open more than 1 port at a time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark J Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 So here's a question for you, @Chestnut. While it makes sense to enlarge the port on the tool, this isn't always possible. So how much advantage is there to connecting a 6" duct to a 4" tool port with a short adapter vs. just running a 4" duct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 I believe if the manufacturers of the tool tested a 6" and it increases DC, they would be mentioning this as a sales point. #1...Most hobby floor tools are send with a 4" port as most woodworkers are set up for this. #2... can one prove the increase? #3... theres a lot of "if" in this theory.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chestnut Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 38 minutes ago, Mark J said: So here's a question for you, @Chestnut. While it makes sense to enlarge the port on the tool, this isn't always possible. So how much advantage is there to connecting a 6" duct to a 4" tool port with a short adapter vs. just running a 4" duct? OK using 20 feet of solid pipe and ignore units as we are just comparing number to get an idea. The losses for a 4" piece would be 10.39. The losses for 6" would be 1.36. If a negative pressure from the collector is 25, there would be 24 units of negative pressure at the 4" port using 6" pipe. Given the same collector negative pressure of 25 with 4" pipe there would be 15 units of negative pressure at the tool port. Keep in mind that minimizing flex can have a HUGE impact. 5' of flex house has about the same pressure loss of 20 feet of solid. This is also impacted by the severity of the bend in the flex hose. If the flex is nice wide and sweeping losses are less than if it's a sharp bend. There was a good discussion with @Coop regarding this in this thread (https://www.woodtalkonline.com/topic/32752-more-dc-systems/page/2/ There are instances where you may not want to use a 6" pipe. That is often in circumstances where the tool may not flow enough air to lift dust vertically in a 6" pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 Is it safe to assume that a 6" duct provides substantially less benefit if the blower inlet is only 4"? Or not? Having no education in fluid dynamics at all ( other that the typical comparisons to current in electrical circuits), I find the calculations for compressible fluid flow totally "baffling". ( see what I did there? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 Best long term option to put a larger DC in . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 @BillyJack, I doubt anyone will argue against that, but it can't hurt to wring all the performance possible from the system you already have, right? Up to a point, I suppose. I've seen some guys go nuts on modifying a HF 2HP unit. Pretty much became a hobby unto itself, with very little ROI beyond the simple things, like venting outdoors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 I’m behind getting the most out of your DC. I hope it works off for gee-dub. I’m just hope people viewing realize that this may or not work based on your system. Every turn, length of run, air leak, ribbed flex hose, etc reduces expected draw. I would not suggest chopping stationary tools to increase DC ports without consideration to not gaining anything and you should try and consult the manufacturer techs for any additional help. DC wasn’t designed to purify the air, just keep power tools cleaned during operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhighlander Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 True, all the commercial shops I know of vent their DC to an external cyclone and collection vessel. No filtering or air return at all. As I recall, @gee-dub mentioned that he is working toward an upgrade to a 5 HP collector, so the 6" hose makes sense in any case there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 To make sure everyone understands. I’m not questioning work done here, just the gain… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyJack Posted November 3, 2022 Report Share Posted November 3, 2022 Commercial shops filter… this has a 24" metal tube for DC. There are around 20 long DC bags inside.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.