Bench Top

[protectedvoid]

So, I posted this in the Neanderthal Village while asking questions about a #6 plane. Anyway, I'd like some advice / feedback on this workbench top. This is just a quick mockup I did in Photoshop (2D).

So, I was looking at some books on workbench designs, and a question hit me. The maple part of the top is going to be constructed from two pieces of 6/4 Rock Maple, Edge jointed and glued w/ loose tenons. Similarly, the Sapele front and rear bands will be jointed and glued w/ loose tenons to the maple. This got me thinking. Most of the designs for work benches I've seen use hardwoods face glued to form surfaces close to 4" thick. Obviously this is very strong and rigid, but I was wondering, if the stock I have is already 6/4, will that be sufficient, or should I head back to the mill and lay down more $$ for several 2x4 of maple?

Also, can anyone recommend a good (but not too pricey) vise screw to use for the end vise? (Not really a "tail" vise, huh?)

Thanks in advance!

[muddlermike]

PV, have you already read Chris Schwarz's Workbenches book? Not that it's the end all - be all of workbench books (I know - I know, I will wash my mouth out with soap later for saying - er - typing that) but his plans for the Nicholson bench used thinner stock (5/4) with success but I imagine thicker would be better for dog holes and such. One thing that is great about that book (if you haven't read it already) is that it was more about the principles of good design over just offering several designs. I think it gives you the design tools to tailor your bench to your needs while still assuring that it will hold up. Not that I'm an expert, or anything.

http://www.amazon.com/Workbenches-Design-Construction-Popular-Woodworking/dp/1558708405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283093761&sr=1-1

As for bench vises, retailers like Grizzly and Peachtree offer lower priced vises, and Lee Valley, Highland, and Woodcraft have cheaper offerings among their higher end stuff. I have a Shop Fox quick release vise from Grizzly that seems solid and well made but I haven't mounted it on a bench yet so I couldn't tell you how well it works, honestly. You can also check out ebay for used vises - there's been some good deals on there in the past.

Mike

[protectedvoid]

PV, have you already read Chris Schwarz's Workbenches book? Not that it's the end all - be all of workbench books (I know - I know, I will wash my mouth out with soap later for saying - er - typing that) but his plans for the Nicholson bench used thinner stock (5/4) with success but I imagine thicker would be better for dog holes and such. One thing that is great about that book (if you haven't read it already) is that it was more about the principles of good design over just offering several designs. I think it gives you the design tools to tailor your bench to your needs while still assuring that it will hold up. Not that I'm an expert, or anything.

http://www.amazon.com/Workbenches-Design-Construction-Popular-Woodworking/dp/1558708405/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283093761&sr=1-1

As for bench vises, retailers like Grizzly and Peachtree offer lower priced vises, and Lee Valley, Highland, and Woodcraft have cheaper offerings among their higher end stuff. I have a Shop Fox quick release vise from Grizzly that seems solid and well made but I haven't mounted it on a bench yet so I couldn't tell you how well it works, honestly. You can also check out ebay for used vises - there's been some good deals on there in the past.

Mike

I ended up picking up this Veritas Tail Vise Screw from a local dealer for $39. I had to order the handle from Lee Valley, because the a 1.25" dowel was too large, and a 1" dowel was too small...and I figured for $7, it was cheap enough, I'd just order it. Well, it cost me $8 in shipping...go figure. Anyway, I'll be able to customize the vise exactly how I need, and this screw gives me quite a bit of opening / clamping pressure.

As for the book, I'm going to check the local library to see if they have it. If not, I'll likely order it from Amazon via WW. From what I've been able to garner about it on the net, it seems to be very much the end all be all of workbench books.

[protectedvoid]

Okay, so I spent yesterday using my first refurbished & tuned-up Stanley #5 hand plane yesterday. After some excellent help from Larry Marshall on using the plane, I was able to glue up my vise block. I don't know what the proper name for it is, which is why I'm going to check out a couple of books (and a DVD on hand planing from "The Schwarz") on workbenches, but in the meantime, here's the deal.

So, I switched around the design a bit, and decided to use Sapele for the block, instead of rock maple. I used 10 pieces of 3/4 x 3 x 11.25 Sapele, planed flat and face glued, to create a block just over 8" x 11.25" x 3". Everything came out perfect...that is, until, my daughter took a rosewood knob I was refinishing on my #6 plane and started beating the top of the unfinished glue-up - denting an otherwise perfectly flattened and smooth top. So, if my 2 year old can do that with a rosewood knob, then obviously, Sapele is not as "hard" as I thought. I'll chalk it up to experience, though...and I'm only out the time and $15 at this point.

So, In my "wood" ignorance, I need some input on other types of darker wood I can use to compliment the rock maple, that will be just as hard as the rock maple and won't dent if my 2 year old decides to hit it with some other random piece of lightweight material.

Thanks.

[iSawitFirst]

I can't think of a bench I've see that used other than maple for the work surfaces. I've see benches with other woods for banding, doweled joints, etc.

Having said that, I would recommend Ipe, Jatoba, and Bloodwood as a possibilities. I've bought them all from Chip.

One word about the design. I wish my work bench didn't have so many holes in it. Things constantly fall through them. I'm going to plug all but a few and buy bench cookies.

[PaulMarcel]

Purpleheart is hard; also takes impact very well. My assembly table is banded with 8/4 purpleheart and it doesn't show the wear it should. So you know, it looks grey when you first machine it; kinda sickly grey. The purple comes out nicely after a week or two after machining is done. Depends on UV exposure.

[protectedvoid]

I can't think of a bench I've see that used other than maple for the work surfaces. I've see benches with other woods for banding, doweled joints, etc.

Having said that, I would recommend Ipe, Jatoba, and Bloodwood as a possibilities. I've bought them all from Chip.

One word about the design. I wish my work bench didn't have so many holes in it. Things constantly fall through them. I'm going to plug all but a few and buy bench cookies.

I went and talked to Chip today at lunchtime, and ended up getting some 5/4 Jatoba. I figure I'll keep the glue up, thickness it down by 4/4 and use the Jatoba for the top, clamping surface, side, and shoulder. That stuff is some hard stuff, and it was right around $5 and some change per board foot.

[protectedvoid]

Purpleheart is hard; also takes impact very well. My assembly table is banded with 8/4 purpleheart and it doesn't show the wear it should. So you know, it looks grey when you first machine it; kinda sickly grey. The purple comes out nicely after a week or two after machining is done. Depends on UV exposure.

Yeah, the place I buy my stock from had a nice piece of purpleheart. Minimal figure, but excellent color. The only problem is it was 8/4, and a little on the pricey side per bf, so I opted for Jatoba. It's very close in color to Sapele, which is overall the look I was going for to compliment the rock maple. I want to use a natural finish, I wasn't really interested in using dyes or stains.

[bois]

To Mike's point, the Schwarz book is a great resource here and may change some thinking. I appreciate these attempts to add contrasting color and interest to the bench top, but the Schwarz' advice for a bench is to use the hardest, thickest species you can get affordably in your area. This is why you see benches made out of hard maple, beech, or ash. They are dense heavy woods that will take a beating. Before you start using expensive exotics, consider the reason behind it. Is it adding function to the bench, or actually detracting from it? Ideally, you want a bench top at least 3" thick if not thicker, with quartersawn grain exposed. This is why most bench tops are face laminations, you can get a thick heavy top and expose the stronger QS surface to the top. A bench is meant to be used, and will take a beating - make sure to consider function first.

[protectedvoid]

To Mike's point, the Schwarz book is a great resource here and may change some thinking. I appreciate these attempts to add contrasting color and interest to the bench top, but the Schwarz' advice for a bench is to use the hardest, thickest species you can get affordably in your area. This is why you see benches made out of hard maple, beech, or ash. They are dense heavy woods that will take a beating. Before you start using expensive exotics, consider the reason behind it. Is it adding function to the bench, or actually detracting from it? Ideally, you want a bench top at least 3" thick if not thicker, with quartersawn grain exposed. This is why most bench tops are face laminations, you can get a thick heavy top and expose the stronger QS surface to the top. A bench is meant to be used, and will take a beating - make sure to consider function first.

Actually, the intent was to add contrast while still being fully functional. The downside was basically my ignorance of the hardness of the wood species based on some conflicting information on the internet about Sapele. So in that end, lesson learned. By profession, I am both a designer and a programmer, where my task is to blend both aesthetic and function together. My desire to add contrast to the bench, while maintaining full function is really just an extension of this. So, after doing more research, and knowing what natural color I was looking for, I think the Jatoba will do very well for my purpose. According to what I was able to find about the species, it's density, gravity, crush resistance, and interlocking grain actually give it a slightly higher load bearing per square inch than rock maple, or at least if I'm reading the information correctly, anyhow. -- My thoughts are that this should complement the maple very well, while still being every bit as functional as the maple is.

That being said, however, I do have a question. The maple I purchased was 8/4 flat sawn - thicknessed down to 6/4. If cut into 2.5" wide strips and face laminated, what type of grain would be exposed on the surface of the bench top?

As to the design / function issue, here's a bit more background:

I don't have a lot of disposable income to spend on this project, but I'm tired of working on 3 sheets of 2' x 4' MDF on saw horses. So, since I don't have a "workshop" - I live in a condo, so my work area is basically by 8' x 16' covered patio - the bench design must be movable by 1 person, must be a break down, and must fit in my 4' x 9' utility closet when not in use. The two boards I have now are approx. 11.25" W x 47" L x 6/4. My thoughts were that if you can build a basic work bench out of two sheets of MDF, laminated to form the top, I should be able to accomplish something similar using 6/4 maple. The idea is to edge glue these two boards together using a few loose tenons to form a top with final dimensions of 22" W x 47" L x 6/4. Then, I would further reinforce the top using 4 dados cut into the bottom, 1/2" deep by 2" wide, and set with a support beam of edge flattened 2" x 3" x 22" Sapele (since I already have it) to add rigidity (and hopefully minimize vertical movement) to the top, since it is only 6/4 thick. Then, once the shooting board and vise sections are finished, the entire thing will be skirted in 4" W x 5/4 Jatoba.

Now, I paid more, per board foot, for the rock maple, than I did for the Jatoba. So, if took the existing boards, ripped them into 2.5" x 47" pieces, and face laminated them, I'd only get 4 pieces per board, giving me a total of 12". To add an additional 10" of face laminated maple would likely run me another $100, which I doubt I could convince my wife was justified.

So, given all of that, do you think this approach will give me a fairly decent work surface that will last me a few years until we sell our condo and I can look at possibly having a real workshop.

[iSawitFirst]

David,

I'd take the cheapest route with this. In a couple of years you'll be in a much better position to do it right. Think of this as a temporary situation, not an end in itself.

In the mean-time, you're more than welcome to use my shop for things you can't handle in your condo.

[protectedvoid]

David,

I'd take the cheapest route with this. In a couple of years you'll be in a much better position to do it right. Think of this as a temporary situation, not an end in itself.

In the mean-time, you're more than welcome to use my shop for things you can't handle in your condo.

Thanks a ton. I know a couple things I'm going to need dimensioned after glue-up. Planer and table saw should handle it, though. I'll try to schedule some time next week to get with you, if that's okay.

[iSawitFirst]

Sure. Just give me a call.

[bois]

Wow, you paid more for the maple than the jatoba? I need to move to your neck of the woods. To answer your first question about face laminating the 6/4 stock, that would indeed accomplish the exposed quartersawn grain. That is how most bench tops are glued up and assembled for maximum strength, thickness, and durability. However, you introduced a lot of new info here - that this has to be a knock down bench that you can easily move and store. Building a 2 1/2 thick bench top of that size could make this rather heavy. It's a bit of a catch 22, since to be effective a bench needs to be massive enough to stay put when you are planing stock (I'm assuming from the shooting board mount you intend to use hand tools). What you suggested with your last post is essentially a hardwood torsion box top. This is definitely a reasonable option, the only challenge might be the depth of the dog holes - ideally deeper holes are more secure but I've heard of folks doing even MDF torsion box benches that work with bench dogs. One other options to consider would be a split top bench, where you could still use a thick top of dense material, but only have to move one half of the top at a time. A guy named Nabil built a roubo style bench specifically for use in his Brooklyn apartment. You can see a picture of his bench top here. The build is photographed on his blog at http://nabilabdo.blogspot.com/ (scroll to the bottom of the first page).

[protectedvoid]

Wow, you paid more for the maple than the jatoba? I need to move to your neck of the woods. To answer your first question about face laminating the 6/4 stock, that would indeed accomplish the exposed quartersawn grain. That is how most bench tops are glued up and assembled for maximum strength, thickness, and durability. However, you introduced a lot of new info here - that this has to be a knock down bench that you can easily move and store. Building a 2 1/2 thick bench top of that size could make this rather heavy. It's a bit of a catch 22, since to be effective a bench needs to be massive enough to stay put when you are planing stock (I'm assuming from the shooting board mount you intend to use hand tools). What you suggested with your last post is essentially a hardwood torsion box top. This is definitely a reasonable option, the only challenge might be the depth of the dog holes - ideally deeper holes are more secure but I've heard of folks doing even MDF torsion box benches that work with bench dogs. One other options to consider would be a split top bench, where you could still use a thick top of dense material, but only have to move one half of the top at a time. A guy named Nabil built a roubo style bench specifically for use in his Brooklyn apartment. You can see a picture of his bench top here. The build is photographed on his blog at http://nabilabdo.blogspot.com/ (scroll to the bottom of the first page).

Thanks for the link. I'm definitely going to take a look at that and see if there's anything I can apply to mine. As for the maple, I'd have to double-check, but I want to say that I paid somewhere around $6 and change per board foot. Also, I paid for 8/4 stock, so basically I paid 2bf per linear foot, if I understand how that stuff is priced correctly. The total board length was right at 10 ft, with a width of just over 11.75". I'd have to go back and use the WW Widget to determine the total bf, or find my receipt.

What really surprised me was that the Jatoba was cheaper than the Sapele, almost the same appearance and color, except the Jatoba is just incredibly hard.

I'll see if I can dig up my original receipt for the maple to see what my actual pbf cost was. The price, however, seemed to be comparable to what I could order via the internet. The board was very clear, though, so the price may have reflected the quality of the wood? - I also forgot, as to the dog holes, those front sections are face laminated 1" x 2.5" - the Maple is 35 inches in length, the Jatoba will be 12" in length. The only dog holes that may be shallower would be the ones that run along the left edge of the bench. However, I figure if I plan my support beam placement correctly (what would the proper term for those be, anyhow?) - I may be able to have them serve double duty to give the extra depth for a blind bench dog hole.

Of course, if worse comes to worse, I could always get some hardwood dowels and make my own bench dogs with flat tops, like the cheap plastic ones that come with the Craftsman benches.

[protectedvoid]

Okay, so just a confirmation. 8/4 Hard maple was $7.22 pbf. 4/4 Hard maple was $4.97 pbf. The 4/4 Jotoba was $5.88 pbf. So, they're within a $1 of each other for comparable 4/4 stock. My first hard maple purchase was actually 8/4 stock, which is why I paid more for it.