Tablesaw horsepower, how much is enough?


Imaginos

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I've never owned a stationary tool but I'm at the point where I'm seriously looking at getting a table saw. I have a Festool TS 75 and while it is great for what it is, there are two generalized problems I need a table saw to solve: a repeatable fence and the ability make cuts from narrow stock. A dado stack for tennoning would be a nice-to-have but I can make those otherwise. I emailed this in to WTO to hear what they have to say about it, but upon further reflection I figured I'd ask here too.

I've been looking at something like the Laguna Fusion and other table saws in the 1.75-2HP nook, or even the SawStop 1.5hp PCS. Whenever I start seriously talking about those saws I get a near-universal balk at the fact that it's not 3 HP followed by the same refrain: thin kerf blades and a 6" dado stack, if even that, then $2000 is a lot to spend on such a woefully "underpowered" saw. Well, I don't see it. Those two saw plus quite a few from Grizzly and Jet are 1.5HP-2HP and ship with a full kerf blade (so I read on the wise and mighty internet). If using them were such a miserable experience of burned and choked cuts seems like the market wouldn't favor them with as many models and solid reviews. Obvious alternatives are are things like the Unisaw, PM2000, the big SawStop PCS, so on. Those come in at $3500 (or so) out the door. While I could budget for a premium cabinet saw eventually, I don't run a production shop and I'm aiming to fill one particular house with furniture, not hundreds. I don't see $3500 worth of use (as a hobbyist) when I could get a Fusion, a solid bandsaw, and a couple of blades for the same price (I've been looking at the Grizzly stuff too, but there's no local distributor and I'm reluctant to buy one that I've never been able to aly eyes on first). Please keep in mind that there's one other feature of the premium saws that's seldom discussed: the sheer inability to continue life without it, which I am totally on board with. I just don't understand why.

So. Where am I going to start finding the real difference between a 1.5HP and 3HP saw? Is 1.5 HP enough to rip 4/4 poplar? 12/4 hickory? Are these tools really limited to thin kerf blades? Or perhaps more to the point, is doubling the HP worth almost doubling the price or are there other features of the saw that make up the difference (build quality, weight, so on)?

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A couple of thoughts:

For a non-pro, you can get away with 'under-powered' saws by altering your feed rate. 4/4 domestic hardwood should be no trouble at all for a 1-2HP saw, especially if you take your time. Additional power allows you to feed faster, which may or may not matter much to you. similarly for the dado size. If you are doing a lot of work on a scale where you need the depth of cut that an 8" stack gives you, then a heavy-duty saw is more useful. It depends on the work you do and the behavior you want to see.

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3 is enough in my shop. Cuts through anything I ask it to with a sharp blade. Occasionally I'll need to do skim cuts to clean off burning if I'm cutting above 1300 or so janka. I think 3hp is the perfect serious hobbyist/small pro shop size. Beyond that you get into diminished returns, IMO.

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The Internet is a dangerous place to try and find answers and you often end up being more confused. The Fusion looks like a very nice saw and have considered it myself. I don't see why 1.75 HP would not be enough, plenty of woodworkers pros and hobbyist a like do great work with these so called "under powered" saws. For what your intending to use if for I think that type of table saw would compliment your TS75 very well. Keep us posted I am curious to see what saw you get.

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I went from a 1.75hp to a 5 and while the power difference is glaringly apparent, if your blade isn't sharp it doesn't really matter whether you have an extra 3.25 horses under the hood. I cut plenty of 8/4 hard maple with my old contractors saw with no issues other than adjusting my feed rate. Sharp, well tuned tools will always out-perform dull well tuned tools.

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I cut plenty of 8/4 hard maple with my old contractors saw with no issues other than adjusting my feed rate. Sharp, well tuned tools will always out-perform dull well tuned tools.

I have had no problems with my 1hp contractor saw either. I run full kerf Freud Diablo blades, and have no problem with 8/4 Jatoba & Purpleheart. If your using the right type of blade, and the blade is sharp you are good to go.

@Imaginos

One thing you might want to compare is maximum depth of cut. a lot of cabinet saws are in the 3 1/4" range while my 1hp contractor saw maxes out at 2 3/8". It might not seem significant, but it can bight you in the but when you start using cross cut sleds and what not.

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I have a 1.5 HP model, and would like more power. I will upgrade to a 3 HP model Saw Stop in the future at some point. I cut a lot of 4/4, 6/4, and 8/4 hardwoods. I use an 8" dado stack, and would like the extra "umphh" a larger motor has. I also look forward to better DC.

When I upgraded my router from a 2.5 HP to a 3.25 HP router, the difference was very apparant. It wasn't that I couldn't do all the stuff I wanted with the smaller model, it's just more enjoyable to use the larger HP unit.

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I have the 3HP PCS SS (They did not offer the 1.75HP model at the time). My understanding is that the 1.75 model was targeted for users who did not have 220 available. It is it not double the price - I think the price differential between the two is about $400.

My previous saw was a 1HP contractor/hybrid saw, and although I mostly ran thin kerf blades I did sometimes use full kerf and also used an 8" dado set. I agree with all the advice above - go with sharp blades and a controlled feed rate.

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I bought a second hand 250mm 2.2KW (±10", ±3HP) saw a few months ago. Have been using it with the blades it came with since then. I had to feed the wood very slowly and was burning it like crazy (stinking up the whole house).

Just today, I put in a new blade. What a difference! It just eats up 6cm (just over 2") thick hardwoods, I saws it faster than I can feed it through (or I just don't know what it can do, yet...).

I had a few 800W (±1HP) saws earlier, but I burned one of the motors in these saws because it bogged down all the time even with thin soft wood and a brand new blade...

3HP will be plenty. Make sure your blades are sharp, that really makes a difference!

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I've owned several saws that ran the gamut of small compact saw to a 3hp cabinet saw. My GI 50-185 2hp contractor saw and Craftsman 22124 1-3/4hp hybrid saw had enough power to cut just about everything I wanted with the precision I needed. However, both of these saws were much more sensitive about setup, blade selection, having flat wood, etc., than the 3hp cabinet saw, plus they definitely cut slower and labored more. The smaller saws have a noticeably easier time with a good 3/32" thin kerf blade vs a comparable 1/8" full kerf blade. A 1/8" blade is 33% wider than a 3/32" blade, and the requires proportionately more power to make the same cut.

The switch to a 3hp saw was a matter of circumstances and opportunity ...I didn't need a Shop Fox 3hp cabinet saw, but a great opportunity knocked, so I answered. I've never had any regrets....it truly was an upgrade in most aspects, and the saw doesn't struggle or slow with anything I've thrown at it. Simply put, it is a more robust saw. The sheer mass, power, and refinement of the mechanisms make it nicer to use and more stable. Since it's not working as hard, and the mechanisms are beefier, it should last longer than a smaller saw. Cutting speed was never a concern for me, but the easier feed rate allows better control, vs the saw dictating the speed.

If 110v restrictions or budget is dictating the decision, then a good hybrid or contractor saw is capable of doing good work. But once you get into the price range of a 3hp cabinet saw (~ $1350 shipped), you'd be smart to weigh out the advantages of a smaller saw vs a beefier saw in the same price range. Industrial cabinet saws are in a different league. Why spend the same or more for a less robust saw? Even though they're capable of making the cut, there are precious few mechanical and performance advantages with a lighter weight saw. The SS technology offers a unique safety benefit that means different things to each of us, but the lower priced SS contractor models give up considerable heft compared to an entry level 3hp cabinet saw. Other than dealer support, something like a Laguna Fusion ($1295) has little advantage over something like a Grizzly G1023RL ($1195+s/h)? Neither has the flesh sensing advantage.

Here's a look at the guts of a typical industrial cabinet saw:

708675PK_det6.jpgSlide1-3.jpg

Vs the guts of a typical hybrid:

pcb270trunnions.jpg

g0478_trunnions.jpg

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Indeed I am, as time and work allow. And it's causing a lot more reading and poking around than it might seem. I think the guys at Woodcraft are fairly well getting tired of me poking around inside their saws. That said, from the start I understood the differences in construction from contractor to hybrid to cabinet and the mass of saw, it all makes sense. What I had no idea about was the performance; even having taken a couple of classes is useful but not exhaustive.

So far, it seems that plenty of people do quite well at 1.5HP and don't think of it as a limitation so much as something to be conscious of. Like most things, it seems to be more about how you use it than what it is, but there are some limitations to be considered. The real pearl of wisdom (which should have been obvious but isn't often said) is that 1.5HP is the 110V option due to current draw on common breaker configurations. That's a hugely important point, and unlike most others, it's opinion neutral. Fortunately for me, one of my Groomsmen is a Journeymen; that problem was solved about a year ago at the low price of three beers and a pizza. For my needs, I think I could complete everything on my Honey Do list for the next three years with a 1.5HP saw as long as it cuts accurately and repeatably. The years after that are the really bit of contention, and honestly I'm leaning toward 3HP but I could still be swayed by a feather.

Now Grizzly options...got it. Customer service...got it. Grizzly G1023RL is basically a repainted Laguna Platinum for $600 less (and vice versa), got it. The 690/691 also keep making themselves known, however, going back to what I said before, while there's Avogadro's Number of outlets that sell them online, I'm extremely reluctant to spend that kind of money (at the risk of shipping costs both ways) before I've had a chance to actually look at one and have someone to deal with.

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Indeed I am, as time and work allow. And it's causing a lot more reading and poking around than it might seem. I think the guys at Woodcraft are fairly well getting tired of me poking around inside their saws. That said, from the start I understood the differences in construction from contractor to hybrid to cabinet and the mass of saw, it all makes sense. What I had no idea about was the performance; even having taken a couple of classes is useful but not exhaustive.

So far, it seems that plenty of people do quite well at 1.5HP and don't think of it as a limitation so much as something to be conscious of. Like most things, it seems to be more about how you use it than what it is, but there are some limitations to be considered. The real pearl of wisdom (which should have been obvious but isn't often said) is that 1.5HP is the 110V option due to current draw on common breaker configurations. That's a hugely important point, and unlike most others, it's opinion neutral. Fortunately for me, one of my Groomsmen is a Journeymen; that problem was solved about a year ago at the low price of three beers and a pizza. For my needs, I think I could complete everything on my Honey Do list for the next three years with a 1.5HP saw as long as it cuts accurately and repeatably. The years after that are the really bit of contention, and honestly I'm leaning toward 3HP but I could still be swayed by a feather.

Now Grizzly options...got it. Customer service...got it. Grizzly G1023RL is basically a repainted Laguna Platinum for $600 less (and vice versa), got it. The 690/691 also keep making themselves known, however, going back to what I said before, while there's Avogadro's Number of outlets that sell them online, I'm extremely reluctant to spend that kind of money (at the risk of shipping costs both ways) before I've had a chance to actually look at one and have someone to deal with.

Make sure you get the tilt you want as well (left vs right).

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I finally settled on a Sawstop 3HP PCS 36" (PCS31230-TGP236). A Unisaw was within hours of being a done deal, but after an evening with a tape measure and some mockups it became obvious that the slightly smaller footprint was a better fit in my garage, particularly in a few years when I'm wrestling with a jointer and bandsaw.

3HP won out for a few reasons. 1) I can afford it, 2) I have 220v, 3) I wanted to future proof it as much as practical. I probably won't be benefitting from the additional HP in the near future with my current list of projects to tackle, but from having spoken to an (impromptu) collection of owners of various saws, this one should last me through my (un)foreseeable interests.

That said, thanks to everyone who responded. I'd litterally been thinking this through in various ways for almost three years.

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You'll have to prove it with pics once its setup! :)

Deal.

post-5526-0-01372100-1353201871_thumb.jp

Just finished assembling it, for the most part. The blades not in it yet, I also need to length the cord to get it to a 220 receptical, table alignment and so on, all for tomorrow.

I know it's often said in the reviews, but the SawStop assembly instuctions and screw packaging is outstanding, on a level I've not seen come with a commercial product in probably 25 years. At no point is there any ambiguity on exactly what to do next and what parts go where (the screws are in a little bubble card that you just punch out and do it). I wasn't expecting all metric fasteners though.

I am debating on how long to wait between instances of running out to the shop to rub it with a baby daiper. Is eleven minutes too long?

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