Cedar fence posts

[mikepugh]

Hey everyone,

I'm torn on my research about using western red cedar 4x4s for fence posts in my back yard. I live in Northern VA so the climate can get hot in the summer and cold in the winter. So far I've read a lot of people saying that cedar posts will outlast pressure treated pine and others that say it'll rot very quickly. To make matters even more confusing, I have one contractor who will install them over gravel within concrete for me and another contractor who refuses to use cedar posts. I've also read conflicting advise on whether or not to coat the bottom of the post that gets bedded into the concrete.

So I've decided to come to these forums and see if anyone has experience with using cedar posts for an outdoor fence, and whether or not they have good/bad experiences. I'm trying to avoid pressure treated lumber since I don't like the chemicals and I really don't like the look as the wood tends to crack and warp very quickly.

Thanks!

[dwacker]

My personal experience. I bought my house 27 years ago. Installed a all cedar picket fence around the front (cedar poles) and a 6 ft cedar fence with pressure treated poles around the back. By this past summer the picket fence was done and was tore down. Most of the poles rotted off at the ground and the pickets were mush. The back fence the bottoms of all the cedar boards are real soft and need to be replaced. The post are solid and show no signs of rot. The front cedar fence had been painted at least 6 times over 27 years. The back fence has been sprayed with thompsons a couple times.

Don

[mikepugh]

Don,

From your profile it looks like you live in a pretty humid/wet area of the country and it sounds like the cedar still managed to give you 20+ years of good service. Despite the rot the past few years, did the fence still look pretty good or has it been an eye sore?

Thanks

[dwacker]

Don, From your profile it looks like you live in a pretty humid/wet area of the country and it sounds like the cedar still managed to give you 20+ years of good service. Despite the rot the past few years, did the fence still look pretty good or has it been an eye sore? Thanks

No it was an eye sore for Id guess three or four years, but my wife was attached to the thing. A few sections fell two years ago so It had to go. Id say I got 20 years out of it in good condition except for the bottoms of the pickets they were done at about 15. Its usually wet or raining here so all in all not bad.

Don

[mikepugh]

Thanks for the quick replies and detailed info. I'm leaning towards Cedar right now, just need to find out if the contractor can source cedar posts that aren't full of sapwood.

[RenaissanceWW]

As far as domestics species go, not many will do well with direct ground contact, let alone buried. 20 years is probably about right for Western Redcedar but it will last even longer if not in direct ground contact. If you want something that is truly maintenance free and will stand the ground contact then pressure treated or a tropical species like Ipe is your best bet. If you go with Cedar let me know we carry it in many sizes and are just north of Baltimore.

[esbauer68]

Another option we have in the northwest is called post on steel or post on pipe. Basically a cedar post with a galvanized pipe bored into the bottom. This way the post sits a few inches above grade and the pipe is set in concrete. Makes a pretty nice fence.

http://www.alpinefenceco.com/post.html no affiliation just a picture I found

The other option is to use cedar posts and galvanized post bases set in concrete.

Both of these options are way more expensive than using ground contact pine. But you don't have to look at that treated pine either.

[Jim DaddyO]

I would use cedar posts if it were me. I would also put gravel in the bottom of the hole and up the sides of the posts so there is some drainage. You do not ever want to use concrete around the posts, that just forces the water to stay next to the post. There is a reason that a gasket is needed in home construction where wood meets concrete. It is just a bad combination.

One caveat. Young cedars have not built up the resins that are needed for rot prevention. You want wood from mature trees, so if you have a choice between a 4" round post and a 6" round post, it would be a good bet that the 6" post came from a more mature tree (some exceptions to the rule of course. I am assuming similar growing conditions)

[noumenon]

Down here in Texas the treated lumber is southern yellow pine and I can tell you hands down it will outlast western red cedar in the elements and is about half the price of cedar in our area. I've seen cedar posts rot out on houses that are only 10 years old and other cedar post that last 15 to 20 which has to do with sapwood content and old growth vs new growth. Not knowing what kind of fence you are building it's hard to recommend what to use, because if it's a normal picket privacy fence I would say use treated posts because the bad side of the fence is ugly to me no matter what. The other thing we have a saying when using PT SYP and that is use it while it's wet, because if you put the posts in and attach the rails before it dries their tied together and this keeps them straight while the wood dries. If you let a PT pine board dry out in the sun with no forces keeping it straight it will look like a egg noodle and you won't be straightening that out. For a little extra money you can get KDAT (Kiln Dried After Treatment) PT SYP which is already dry and will move way way less than the wet variety. Here is the link to the company down here that produces my favorite PT SYP lumber http://www.greatsouthernwood.com/products/yellawoodselect. Aestheticly cedar is the winner, but here is my question "Why use wood?". I always recommend galvanized square tubing to my clients, I usually get it in 2"x2" 11 gauge in 24' lengths and after paying the cut fees at the yard it comes out to $20 for a 8' post and will outlast any wood in the ground besides super expensive woods like Ipe. Just make sure you buy caps for them so they don't fill full of rain water. I've refenced a ton of fences with metal post after the pickets and rails are rotted and it's a breeze, just attach new rails and pickets and your done. If you want the post to have a wood look just wrap them in wood (the reason why I like square tubing vs round). Now I still use cedar posts every once in a while if the look on certain types of fencing is needed and the client doesn't want to pay the extra cost for galvanized tubing wrapped in wood. Also I would definetly recommend end dipping any cedar posts and putting a few inches of gravel in the bottom of the holes, because from my many years of experience as a contractor replacing decking, fencing, facia, etc. it's always the endtgrain that soaks up the water and cedar end grain is like a sponge.